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Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Littlepip on Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:36 pm

Diversity, does not equal to less people to other guilds. Diversity is good, it lets people try out new things and lets those that are not interested in being a good person (Yes, there are those kinds of people out there. Shocker.) become what they really wanted to be.

Now that is off my heart, lets have some patience, read everyone's thoughts on this concept and remain serious, anything that is -not- related to the topic will be removed, this is about our servers future we're talking about, and we all love it.

These realms are amazing, they contain a vast history going back all the way to all the way back to 14/09/2005, it is the oldest and most successful RP-PvP server in Europe, and still is. In fact, we are so well established, we have our own forum, wikipedia and page on the Wowpedia!

When I look at our history, I can't help but feel a sense of pride having been part of this community, having been here in its ups and downs and witnessed greatness first hand. And I'm sure many more of you has witnessed even more then I have, closer to the point where its bashing your head in with a mace/sword/arrow/etc.

Ever since the introduction of the connected realms, our's has only grown to be able to fit even more people. More friends can now have a great time together by roleplaying, doing PvP, PvE and hell even Pet Battles. We helped make this community great together and together we continue to stay by working for a better or in some cases worse place. I'm looking at you trolls and haters, you helped make this community to what it is today, we all deserve a pat on the shoulder, not only for having worked together and against each other, but for making it this far through this mumbling rant without falling asleep.

Through out the years this realm has seen a whole lot of different people, from the worst of the worst that issues death threats over spilled milk and the best of the best that are willing to remain on a dying, mostly forgotten realm and continues to faithfully help each other out in their times of need.

Its in my firm belief, that its this diversity of people that has. Not only good people, but the bad apples as well that helped make this server great. Perhaps not all the time, but most of it.

While I love the good guys, and I really do love that people love each other and give hugs out like hand jobs at a whorehouse, I have to admit that I'm also in love with the darker side. Reading about two guilds fighting it out IC gives me goosebumps, because it creates conflict and conflict, ladies and gentlemen are good, no, its great!
It gives people something to talk about, something to look forwards to, something to think about and pick sides. It inspires people to do better or worse, to try their best to beat the other side and become the best of the best. Almost like PvP, no?

I know many of you out there will disagreed or even hate me for having this opinion, while a few of you might be thinking the same. But I honestly think, to the core of my heart believe that this realm -needs- diversity in order to survive. It needs guilds that are aligned to evil.

Such as N'zoth and his corruption of the Emerald Dream. (I think its him.)
Or the remnants of Yogg Saron in an attempt to free his being.
Perhaps even the Legion, and their endless power. (Loosing hope is not uncommon when faced with an endless wave of foes.)

Some of you might say that we can't afford to make more guilds, that we simply don't have enough people to create them. Not enough roleplayers. To you I say; what are you talking about? The purpose of creating more guilds are to create more roleplay and make more people interested in roleplaying. Your making a paradox by saying such things.

Some others might say that it'll be to hard. To you I say; Well of course, your becoming a guild leader, whats not hard about that? There is not a single guild leader out there that has had it easy creating a guild, and when it comes to evil ones one needs to actually be good at it.

Finally, the very last of you might say that the good guy's will simply steamroll us eventually.
To the few/many of you that say's that, the solution is rather simple. Talk with your opponents Out of Character rather then isolate yourself from them. Just because your characters hate theirs doesn't mean you have to OOC, remain friendly with them and play smart IC and that won't happen. I've known quite a few people that has had evil characters and never even been touched by the Law. And that was, (from a personal interview of Hex) because he played it intelligently, he kept people on his good side as much as he could.


I hope that a few of you has read through this, though it was a rather long one this is my honest opinion which I hope all of you can respect. Give me your thoughts, are we better without diversity, without a struggle against other players, to stagnate and remain the same. Or do you think we need more types of guilds, and not just evil ones but neutral, chaotic and such.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Webbles on Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:11 pm

I'm certain everyone would love some more diversity, but no one actually wants to do it themselves. Much like yourself, people are content with their current guilds and have no desire/time/enthusiasm to start a new thing on their own.

And even if someone else started it, throwing an alt in the guild would be fairly pointless when your main guild has an event every night, which you always end up prioritizing because, well, it's your main.

As for the evil characters, I believe there are tons of them scattered across the guilds, but only few actually find that out because they play it smart.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Littlepip on Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:17 pm

Going to wait a day for more people to reply before responding properly with a longer post, for now I'll just keep it short.

Yes people are going to throw an alt into the guild, but I seriously doubt the guild will only have alts in them as I said earlier, the main purpose of making more guild is to make more people interested in roleplay. -Not- as a way to entertain the people that are already there. Though thats a good side effect this plan has.

TLDR; More diversity = More Interest. More Interest = More Roleplayers.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Webbles on Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:45 pm

Well, that logic seems very... optimistic.

Either way, by telling the people of defiasrp to make new evil/chaotic/whatever guilds, the most likely results are:
  1. Nothing happens
  2. Someone makes a guild on an alt that will be joined mainly just by their friends' alts


I think it takes someone new, who hasn't found their home on the server yet, to actually be able to do it with the required enthusiasm and determination as they won't have a home to run back to after the first failure (i.e. a Zackarus). I don't think those people generally hang out on defiasrp — the most active people here seem to be boring old guild masters/officers or whatever fancy ministers who have already built themselves a rather comfortable RP bubble.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Cid on Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:22 am

Or 3. People immedietly know it be evil and thus ban them from being inside a major city since they can 'detect an evil aura' around their members or such crap. Has happened before, sadly. Or the guards busting in whenever they have events despite noone should've known they were gathering at that precise spot etc. Also happened too often for people to enjoy the evil side of RP.

There have been a plethora of 'evil' guilds per se on this realm over the years, but every 'goody two shoes' need to win, because evil cannot triumph according to those. Egotripping like that makes playing the villain extremely dull in the long run or even the short run. I haven't gone down that path myself in my roleplay, so I don't have all details clear. However, the ones I've talked to over the years that had been part of such or were leading such guilds all had one thing in common: They weren't allowed to win or even have a draw. The good side must kill the villains at all costs, since evil cannot exist here etc.

That along with the other stuff I mentioned makes it hard for someone to establish a properly evil RP base here. Eventually they just give up because they aren't given a chance to do what they could be doing, which be promoting more roleplay. What good are paladins without evil to fight? What good are Alliance without the Horde? Where there is Light, there is also Shadow. Two sides of the same coin.

I went on rambling there, but the main thing is: If we want some 'evil' roleplayers to start something, they must be allowed to have some space to do their thing, and not constantly go 'pallypower prevails always'.

(Paladins are mentioned here mainly as the paragon of Light and a typical example of those fighting cultists etc. Those playing paladins should not take offense by this).

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Naroma on Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:38 am

I think as Webbles stated regarding evil characters, people don't need a guild tag to be able to offer diversity. Beyond having small amounts of "random" RP I still don't see this lack of diversity. I see a lack of interest, a lack of supporting people's events, and a lack of enthusiasm, but diversity is everywhere if people actually leave their afk spots and RP with people.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Naroma on Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:55 am

And further to Cids comment I also agree, from what I've seen anything that doesn't constitute as lawful/good have a tough time even existing in hub like areas from the get go, and realistically? They should. But hyper realism is very unhealthy for RP in my personal opinion.

I can totally understand why someone wouldn't want to go through the process of starting their own guild to fit such a niche, just to be banished from the kingdoms on week 1 then try recruiting from the outskirts of a swamp or whatnot.I've personally given a shot at a seperate guild concept in the past, but running more than one guild just didn't work and I didn't even get it up off the ground.

I would love to see more guilds and rpers, but at the same time it would seem those with the time and energy to do so already have their own guilds. And as much as it would be great to see things change, I don't think they are going to unless others are more supportive, constructive and open to others trying new concepts.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Littlepip on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:24 am

The fact that people points out that good guys shouldn't always win proves in itself that people has began realizing that this shouldn't be true.

Evil has had its victories as well as losses as well as the Good guys.

As for creating a guild around this concept, its more to gather people together easier, for everyone to unite under a single person and ideal. Having a guild, rather then a bunch of people that simply knows each other is much better since it unites people, bonds them sort of.

The guild is the adhesive sort of.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Naroma on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:29 am

It feels like you're preaching to the choir as it were. No one's point is 'that won't help' but 'Who is going to do it, and how much will they be supported?'

I'm open to discuss ideas, and a lot has already been tried to improve communication, but many are quite apathetic about such things. I think everyone is -for- an increased player base, but combining new content keeping people busy and existing guild obligations, who would do this?

Edit: and I mean that openly, not rhetorically, if we have some people willing to run things we can help.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Reyxor - Urgual on Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:41 am

I haven't seen a need to more evil guilds. Isn't there enough evil in the status quo, I see that there is. Everyone is evil/ has a darker side. This is what is natural and nothing wrong about it. It just needs to be taken care of by not letting it influence in what one does.

What for would there need to be cultists order, putting their evil in place to do fel things. I would be quite certain there is, as was pointed out, an opposition towards such ic and maybe even ooc. That is not for me at least, except when playing a warlock or such. Warlocks are often hated by light followers, which again is perfectly fine. I just want to play it nice and not get too much extraordinary rp with unreal ideas, which would lead to nonsense meaningless situations without real experience of a sensible plot.

To clear my opinion, I'd feel uncomfortable accepting ic an evil character yes, due to it's something I won't accept ic on most of my chars. There is also the ooc thing, that someone wants to be evil ooc in a game, and well that can be harmless, but really I don't want someone trying to divert for ooc reasons my rp into "wrong paths". So it's really uncomfortable idea to me at least. So the current evil is already enough and one should try to decrease it.

Anyway, if there is a well played not ooc harmful evil order, that knows what they are doing and are not trying it too hard, yes they'd be great. But that style is quite difficult, which due to the difficulty would receive my respect. Until there are such, I can't accept the evil guild idea. This doesn't apply to Horde, since they have very different approach in game lore.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Cid on Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:50 am

Reyxor - Urgual wrote:I haven't seen a need to more evil guilds. Isn't there enough evil in the status quo, I see that there is. Everyone is evil/ has a darker side. This is what is natural and nothing wrong about it. It just needs to be taken care of by not letting it influence in what one does.

The first part of the argument sound very much like the one I've met with from AD'ers about a dwarf only guild. There is ALWAYS a need for more roleplay on a RP server, and if a guild can help make it happen, by all means, make one.

Reyxor - Urgual wrote:What for would there need to be cultists order, putting their evil in place to do fel things. I would be quite certain there is, as was pointed out, an opposition towards such ic and maybe even ooc. That is not for me at least, except when playing a warlock or such. Warlocks are often hated by light followers, which again is perfectly fine. I just want to play it nice and not get too much extraordinary rp with unreal ideas, which would lead to nonsense meaningless situations without real experience of a sensible plot.

The first two sentences I could not make out what you were trying to say. As for Warlocks being hated by Light followers, do note that mages are not trusted by paladins either in 'Day of the Dragon' (after all, wielders of arcane brought the Burning Legion here in the first place, ergo arcane is evil in the eyes of paladins).
If you roleplay someone without revealing what class you are playing, then people shouldn't 'smell fel' about you if you happen to play a warlock without telling so beforehand. That's the stuff I react upon. If they are some form of witch that can curse you, provide magic potions or such, then suddenly we see a different approach to how people treat them. Besides, Varian used warlocks in 'War Crimes', ergo they are accepted among the Alliance in general (even if some races exclude their practices for their own beliefs).

Reyxor - Urgual wrote:To clear my opinion, I'd feel uncomfortable accepting ic an evil character yes, due to it's something I won't accept ic on most of my chars. There is also the ooc thing, that someone wants to be evil ooc in a game, and well that can be harmless, but really I don't want someone trying to divert for ooc reasons my rp into "wrong paths". So it's really uncomfortable idea to me at least. So the current evil is already enough and one should try to decrease it.

IC and OOC are two widely different things. For the remainder of what you say I couldn't make out much, aside from the last sentence. What we percieve as evil is based upon opinions. On my paladin character, a Horde shaman worshipping the spirits would likely stand out as 'evil' in his eyes. They are after all practicing some mumbo-jumbo heathen religion he himself don't believe in, and it is a Horde, so it be a natural opponent to the character I play. It is also in land that according to history belonged to someone else, even if the previous owners couldn't hold it against the current ones.

In the Horde character's eyes however, it'd be communing with the spirits asking for guidance perhaps, all according to ancient tradition, thus not doing anything evil. The shaman could however view the paladin as evil since (generalization) paladins have some extreme views upon morals that they want to enforce upon those underneath them, plus being Alliance who time and time again have come after the Horde when they only try to survive makes the paladin look more than enough evil to them.

Reyxor - Urgual wrote:Anyway, if there is a well played not ooc harmful evil order, that knows what they are doing and are not trying it too hard, yes they'd be great. But that style is quite difficult, which due to the difficulty would receive my respect. Until there are such, I can't accept the evil guild idea. This doesn't apply to Horde, since they have very different approach in game lore.

In general I agree with what you say here, except the last part. Why would the Horde accept warlocks better than Alliance do? If anything, they would have BIGGER reason to shun them than Alliance ever would (few examples from the orcs: Gul'dan gives blood of Mannoroth for everyone to drink, warlocks lead the Horde out on a bloodthirsty conquest of lands, warlocks create death knights when their own ranks grow thin, warlocks abandoning the Horde forces just as they are about to deliver the killing blow, fel addiction caused them to suffer from a lethargy when cut off from their sources etc). I could give more from Forsaken and Blood Elf point of views, but I guess you can see where I'm going with this.

Warlocks among the Alliance ranks have yet to cause us trouble. We have no reason to trust them, but also no reason not to trust them. They are useful, a way of means toward an end. This have however gone on with me believing you were speaking about warlocks as cultists in general, while you could have meant something different (shadowpriests perhaps?). Either way, you do not need to be a warlock to be evil. You do not need to be a priest or paladin to be good (look at Scarlet Crusade).

Neither class need to be evil per se, but it is opinions that shape our judgements upon one another. You could be a warrior breaking bones in a dark alley just to get a few more coppers, just as an example. But enough rambling on my part.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Reyxor - Urgual on Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:11 am

Thanks Cid for lecturing, but more rp is always good? Well there is rp I don't want to have and there is rp I want to have. Just gave what I think. I'm sorry, but I can't figure much point in evil rp in general. And yes, the points you Cid made up there were really concentrating on schematics of rp, guess people see this game in different ways.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Cid on Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:54 am

True, there is some RP we don't want to have around, I fully agree to that. As for the kind I leave it unsaid, since not everyone agree on that topic. However, the point with evil RP is to provide something for the good to fight against. How fun would for instance a guard guild be, if there never was any crime commited that they could handle? Or vice versa, how fun would a criminal guild be without having to IC'ly hide from the guards and their warrants?

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Webbles on Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:07 pm

Reyxor wrote:To clear my opinion, I'd feel uncomfortable accepting ic an evil character yes, due to it's something I won't accept ic on most of my chars.

That's the point. Everyone's characters react to 'evil' differently. Your character can hate them — that's a good RP situation. Someone else's character mightn't care as long as the 'evil' person isn't harming them, and a third character might agree with their ideals.

IC conflicts create good RP, as Littlepip said.

I find it odd that you don't see the point in evil RP, yet you roleplay a leader of a guard guild. Do you just want to patrol in shiny armour?

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Reyxor - Urgual on Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:34 pm

Cid wrote:How fun would for instance a guard guild be, if there never was any crime commited that they could handle? Or vice versa, how fun would a criminal guild be without having to IC'ly hide from the guards and their warrants?

I do agree on these points. Also if there are no crimes for guard guild to handle, well there could be in ic point of view a good situation, since there is all in order so to say. A situation with no crimes; it's not that bad. Guard guild can get other things to do ic.

Webbles wrote:I find it odd that you don't see the point in evil RP, yet you roleplay a leader of a guard guild. Do you just want to patrol in shiny armour?

It's more than a guard guild, so there is plenty of other things to do than walk in shiny armour and patrol the streets of Stormwind or Elwyn etc. If there are less crimes, well one can concentrate better on the real issues outside the area of, in this case, SW jurisdiction. Like looking at the enemy the military guild aspect puts one to concentrate on.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Webbles on Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:04 pm

So you wanted guard rights, but you'd rather there are no crimes (evil RPers) so you can focus on the things you were doing regardless of getting guard rights?

Reyxor wrote:Also if there are no crimes for guard guild to handle, well there could be in ic point of view a good situation

But OOC it can get boring if the situation is good IC. Sure they can do something else, but maybe they'd rather not.

Anyway, it's up to each goody-two-shoes to decide whether or not they even want to RP with these evil characters/guilds if they emerge. Having them around won't hurt anyone.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Littlepip on Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:42 am

Its nice to see that everyone here is discussing philosophy and the idea of creating an 'evil' guild is at least something everyone seems to think about every now and then.

I've not really got anything to add to this conversation other then; while its great that everyone discusses it, action is needed more then words. Its why I'll turn the topic around a little.

Instead of discussing if, or should, I'll ask anyone that reads this if there is any interest here in making an 'evil' guild on the Alliance/Horde side. And if so, who would you vote in leading it and what would you like it to be based around.

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Naroma on Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:26 am

I don't really think it should matter who runs it. As long as it is someone who genuinely wants to run a guild. As for casting a vote on an individual to run it, I'm not sure who you'd even pick from. Basically every RPer I meet is dedicated to their guild. If someone has the time and patience then they should just do it. Smile

As for concepts? I'd like to see something that just offers open membership through its concept. The key to kicking off a guild from the ground up is avoiding a niche. What the guild would do I don't think matters too much, but having their core concept one that can take in anyone would be good in my opinion.

The only other thing I'd add, is making sure whoever does lead it is willing/able to keep things serious and void of power RP and so on (as should be expected of other guild leaders, and any you may interact with) and to plan ahead beyond initial chaos/murders/cult activity. Someone willing to develop a concept beyond an initial crime spree that leads to an endless off screen man hunt.

Well, that's my ramble on the subject!

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Sagefire - Dove on Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:06 am

I have some conflict oriented stuff planned at the moment (the murders are going to hopefully be the start of something bigger if people show interest). I believe that no story is good without conflict, and this applies to our characters personal stories as much as any overarching plot. The best conflict doesn't come from the obvious threats, and RP against the Legion and the Horde is really just an extension of what we are already doing as Alliance PC's Smile Could be interesting to have not just enemies on the front, but also at home, making everything just a little bit harder for our lads and lasses fighting the good fight, while bringing conflict to those who may not be equipped to handle it - those who stayed back from the fighting.

Extensive RP like this, when handled properly, can make even the most seasoned RP'er giddy with excitement just to play another day in the lives of their personally forged characters and stories. Can be quite beautiful, no?

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Narin on Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:40 am

The effort required to set up and keep an roleplay guild going must me enormous. Thankyou to all those who do this task.

Not only do you have to balance the out the ooc needs of your group, but also provide interest for ic needs too. Just to communicate on the forums about the stories going on takes time. I find that much of the roleplay I do is lost in the moment.

As Narin (the ninth company) I post a great deal on that forum to try to capture both my roleplay and that of the recruits. I love to do this, but may threads that sound interesting get lost as people move on, and others may move on without being recorded. I am sure that important point in other's roleplay has also been overlooked, perhaps they feel as I do at times that what they have said or done is ignored or not respected.

I could personally love to see an evil guild emerge as a protagonist, as it stands my (causal) evil person does get approached occasionally to threaten or assassinate someone. I also have an assassin that can follow that through (again a casual toon), but twice I have been approached to assassinate my own main roleplay character. I can of course pass this on outside but have no easy way to do this. It also makes the roleplay less exciting.

I also feel that some newer roleplayers are perhaps uncertain about reaching out to people outside their own guild. Inter guild events would be one way to encourage this. Including activities such as these murders and the market.


____________________________________________
Guild characters: Narin and Yriah (the ninth company)
                         Gia (the house of yore)
                         Flintaz (death)

Narin

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Azapha on Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:24 pm

The argument that is "good" and "evil" rp I'd kinda moot to case is it fine to do or not, reason being evil and good are subjective to opinion, is seen "good guys" do some stuff that was far from good and seen "evil" toons show more respect or good will than the supposed good guys, as such I tend to just go with the term ideology

True villeins are most likely going to be hated, if someone wants to make a defies brotherhood guild and parade around city all day, you have to expect people to treat you as bad,  such ideas work for short term rp but not long term

To argue people supporting evil rp maybe people need to learn to understand what it really takes to be a real good guy first?  I mean playing a zealot who hates all fel users and will go to great lengths to destroy them is far from good guys to begin with Razz..  the paladins who used to crusade into the lamb lower levels to flush out the warlocks was if anything doing evil rp

Rayxor I don't really agree with you on the point, just because one person is not so keen does not mean others are not, for the same reasons as you I won't have my character suddenly stop doing bad things just because others don't like characters who are willing to commit evil.

the reality is in wow RP we have an issue that will always hinder evil RP and any who have done pen/paper RP will probably already know this as its what happens when a guy picks an evil alignment = you have no way of wiping the slate clean.. in a dungeons and dragons game you are given rules that ALLOW you to kill another PC .. meaning mister necromancer who just got busted by his paladin friend can simply choose to kill now and deal with mess later .. wow dos not really give you that option unless the other player is okay with that, now this would not be a problem if it was not for some of the "good guys" acting like the bad guys would never dream of killing them if backed into a corner (seriously guys.. iv had a few times iv HAD to say in /w that i am running out of reasons to not OCly just kill the really annoying pest, and say in OOC so i dont get a bad response when i do act on there actions )

lesson learned from all of this, i just go by the rule of sure be a good guy and ill keep playing my not so good toon.. but dont try to provoke my toon to bite if you aren't okay with the response she gives back of harming you

Azapha

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Izzifix on Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:07 am

Two points, sort of on-topic:
1. Conflict does not have to come from one party being evil. Guild conflicts between sides that generally speaking are equally "in the right" can be amazing. Good people who just happen to screw each other over and begrudge each other too.

2. The largest barrier for a villain character is when a "hero" character's player starts percieving the villain as an antagonist in his character's story, instead of as a protagonist in a story of his own. If people start percieving and treating your character like an event, then the scenarios Cid describe with good roflstomping over evil and going to the inn for celebratory tea and biscuits will soon come real.

(that second one is kind of why evil characters don't always create more conflict etc. a well written evil character has plenty of his own things going on without air dropping bodies over stormwind or heading over to stab guard every night. finding a good balance of private and public evil is crucial)

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Skarain on Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:25 am

Disclaimer: This is primarily written from Alliance PoV, as Horde works very different as a faction in roleplaying, allowing by it very nature more out-of-the-mold and darker concepts.

---

I have recently been reading a lot DnD related material, which does give me enough insight to toss a few thoughts here.

The Settings Itself

The setting of WoW itself is not one that does greatly support "evil" roleplaying. The game's mechanics and story are not tailored around such.

The main things in the game seem to be "big bads" that the adventurers go out and defeat, whilst also fighting with the other World-Power, Horde and Alliance.

Cultural differences, wars in the past and old grudges take the factions to eachother throats all the time. Whenever something threaten the entire world, they either band together against it or an independant group of Faction aligned adventurers go and defeat it.

Now, there are/have been many factions out in the game. Redridge Gnolls, Defias Brotherhood, Thieves, Jungle Trolls, Bloodsail Bucaners, Steamwheedle Cartel, The Venture Co., Atal'ai, Blackrock Orcs, Thorium Brotherhood, Forces of Ragranos, Shadowforge City, Troggs, Ogres of Badlands, other Orcish remnants, The Twilight's Hammer, Blackwater Raiders, The Syndicate, The Ravenholdt, Jungle Trolls, The Scourge undead, Green Dragonflight, The Scarlet Crusade, Plaguepaw Gnolls, Gilneans, Dalaran-ian people and the list goes on. (listing all factions I can remember from Vanilla WoW Eastern Kingdoms).

What have we been doing to all those factions? Yep....

Most of the factions that were not neutral or befriend-able by the player have been either struct heavy blows at or defeated. Every faction that have gathered to much power has been steamrolled over by the Alliance/Horde adventurers. Every Dungeon, defeated. Every Raid, raided.

Thus, most Neutral or Hostile factions (that can be attacked by players) have lost a large chunk of their numbers, and can no longer threaten the Alliance or Horde in the way they used to. Any player who seeks to play as a member of those factions, should they wish to abide to the lore, is that their faction is mostly stompped down, and only tattered remnants remain.

Bitter of their defeat as they may be, they may try to rebuild and stand out again, but what hope do they have against something as big as Horde or Alliance?

This thought alone does not do much to "inspire" players to take the mantle of these factions.

Evil Against a Faction

Into another aspect and restriction of "Evil Roleplaying". Factions that does not bow or act friendly with the Major Powers will be unable to walk freely around their cities unless disguised, which may reduce the amount of roleplaying that they are able to get.

"Cultism" roleplaying in the past involved a dark hood and robes for a reason. If your face was seen, it did not take long that the amount of roleplaying you were able to get was reduced a great deal.

A disguise had a risk of being torn apart, but an even greater risk was of people meta-gaming sub-conciously or purposefully. Usually it happen by mistake but inflict terrible harm nonetheless. Greatest problem came when you were meant to have a meeting amongst your own dark people, and then out of nowhere a group of good-doers appear.

Alternatively, there might be someone spying, end up being captured, then ignore the possibility of being harmed and run off to report the secret cult location to the authorities. This to happend sometimes, and caused another great deal of drama.

That, or the Cult in question became to bold, and attracted the attention of the entire Alliance side roleplaying community, which resulted into a great Campaign but usually leading into more dead cultist characters than dead good-guys.

Another possibility was that a Cultist was captured, and then proceed to betray their own Cult in exchange of a pardon, which usually resulted into the spilling of the cults secrets and enabled the "good guys" to launch a much more systematic attack upon the cult. This either wounded, damaged or utterly destroyed a cult.

Then there is also the factor that you can not kill another player without their permission, which does eat away at the merrit of faction-vs-faction conflit, since there is always possibility that someone ignores an outcome due to their attachment to their characters. That in turn led into Drama.

Needless to say, Evil against a Major Faction carry a massive deal of risks, require much more planning and is potential to go flat on it face if one of the carefully placed gears break up.

Evil Within a Faction

This type of "evil" roleplaying is usually the one that persist for the longest. The roleplaying involves actually working from within the faction, as a part of the system. By DnD alignments, "Lawful Evil".

This type of roleplaying involves abusing the system to it fullest, or finding ways to circumvent it whithout outright breaking it. It usually involve about hoarding Power and then using that power to your own ends.

While House of Yore is by no means an "evil" guild, during a time, they actively encroached upon territory held by others and sought to spread their influence. Since they appeared as open, partook in the politics and followed the law, taking actions against them is a different game than with the Cultists example.

Likewise, there was once a Character named Braiden. They were a Noble, first a Magister, then a Judge, then the Minister of Justice. For a time, they were the most powerful character on the roleplaying scene. Not by personal power, but by the influence he had. He may have made use of some Blood Magic to ensure the silence of his servants, of all the shady deeds they did for "behind the scenes" manipulation, but normal people never saw or heard anything about that.

Then I simply must mention Chapter of Holy Anethion. They were a group of Light-worshippers, following the teachings and writings of their Prophet, Anethion. They made their own religious rites and teachings, taking a good deal of inspiration of the Scarlet Crusade while not 'being' Scarlet Crusade. Thus, they were a faction that were not linked to any "hostile" faction, but they still did abide by the law and supported the King. They sought to convert other people into their religion, and generally deemed everyone who was not an Anethionean either missguided or simply a heretic, and they were not afraid to say that out aloud. The amount of conflict they were able to create without being branded as an enemy of the state, due to their unique background, was simply priceless.

Lastly, there was a certain Helmut Spoon that was an absolute dick, but a dick that had power, being the Minister of Defense. A great deal of people did not like him IC, but since he had some.... strong opinions, it did shine out and brought contrast to the roleplaying.

Enough of examples. Starting up something Within a faction that is of Evil or crossing alignment is probably easier than "Outright Enemy Faction".

The good thing is that since people won't treat you outright as an enemy, it allows for a lot character interaction which leads into character progression. You should be able to recruit others into your cause easier aswell, as it yield less character damaging ends than "Outright Enemy" path does. That being, if you even need others to join your cause.

Obviously, this path cause less "instant havoc". It's more about subtle planning, or a slow climb. That is the trade-off of taking a "safer path".

----

These are my ramblings, as for now.

For anyone going out there to create a guild, faction or anything not aligned with the major factions, either evil or otherwise to cause conflict within the faction, my recommendation is to start up on a blank slate.

By blank slate I mean that your "group" or "faction" will not exist anywhere in the current lore. You may take inspiration from things in this universe or another, but ultimately you should strive to make your own thing.

This will free you from any lore-restrictions, gives you more freedom and grants an unwritten future. It will require more build-up than simply grabbing the concept of something that already exist, but it will also be more rewarding in the end.


_____________________________________________________
(A) Skarain - Skarain Feirand: Outlawed Worgen Arcanist, Magi of the Underworld and Speaker of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
(H) Nakris -  Nakris Sin'voth: Captain of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Also known as Mahruon, Halisi, Reljen, Senrar, Inran, Flickÿ and Grimfeather

Contact: Skarain#2346(Btag), Skarain#8885(Discord), inejaro(Skype)

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"Roleplaying....is beautiful. And it may take your heart and soul. Entirely..."

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Helmut on Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:48 pm

Wow, I come back to check on DB and how it's doing and Skarain uses Helmut as an example for evil RP. It's like he knows that I am lurking around here and tries to bait me back!

No but really start listening to Skarain about the lawfully evil RP. It was very few people who did it during my years on DB but those who did it shined through and created good RP. Every "we are evil outsiders for evils sake" feels unoriginal and dull after a couple of years.
You also see a lot of lawful evil within the lore like Warchief Garrosh, Archbishop Benedictus and Lady Prestor (Onyxia) which you can take inspiration from. The real world works well too. I based a lot of Helmut's evil characteristics on George W. Bush, his politics and the conspiracies surrounding him and don't forget about the classic "dwarves builds a model Soviet Union" that we had aswell.

Now take that political position, that Grand Marshal title or maybe make yourself the new and influencial decon of the church and start your greedy quest for power and riches!

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

Post by Skarain on Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:16 pm

But why of course, Helmut. The Alliance is simply not the same without the Spoonmaster.

Was George W. Bush also offering food at whichever military meeting? And expensive drinks.

_____________________________________________________
(A) Skarain - Skarain Feirand: Outlawed Worgen Arcanist, Magi of the Underworld and Speaker of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
(H) Nakris -  Nakris Sin'voth: Captain of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Also known as Mahruon, Halisi, Reljen, Senrar, Inran, Flickÿ and Grimfeather

Contact: Skarain#2346(Btag), Skarain#8885(Discord), inejaro(Skype)

Help the appearance of the server: Report player/pet/guild names.

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"Roleplaying....is beautiful. And it may take your heart and soul. Entirely..."

Skarain

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Re: Back to the Drawing-board

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