House of Nobles open discussion

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Hutchins on Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:07 am

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:As a hypothetical, would you consider it feasible for member guilds to be afforded council seats proportional to the percentage of membership that their guild makes up? So if a guild is 35% of the total membership of guilds/organisations in the council, they'd get 35% of the total amount of seats in the council. This would mean that each guild member has the same numerical representation in the council, but it'd also present other issues. For example, would you grant seats based purely on character count? Or would you only grant seats based on members that are active parts of the guilds/organisations? If the latter, how would you verify who is and who isn't active enough to count toward the total number? Also, what if one guild manages to fill up to 51% of the total membership count? Their representatives would then get to dictate every decision made in the council. You'd need countermeasures, then, to ensure that the interests of smaller guilds are also represented.

In the end, honestly, a democratic system where each guild has a set amount of seats and each seat has 1 vote on all decisions is, far as I can see, the most reasonable system.

For purely guild related matters that would be perfectly reasonable if a vote even felt necessary at any point to get some guild related shizzle going. Although I honestly can't think of a situation where a vote would be necessary.

Going off what Skarain proposed to the idea, that'd be fine for the Council to do as the Council would be purely focused on guild, and possibly community, related things. Maybe voting on locations to host events? Or maybe voting who would begin the events and then end them? Although the latter example may prove difficult if all guilds just voted for themselves.

And I got distracted and forgot what the point of my response was, well I'll post it up and get back to work.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:13 am

I really don't understand what you just said, Hutchins...

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Hutchins on Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:26 am

I can't remember either, got distracted half way through and forgot what I was trying to say. I think it may have been something like "That idea works if the council turned to something purely based around the guilds" or something.

I can't remember, finishing up my work day right now.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:32 am

Maelmoor wrote:So the whole concept of letting the guilds and organizations play the major part is then wrong from your point of view? To involve more people and reduce "elitism" it is preferred to have a House of Nobles..which only nobles would be able to be part of? Sorry but you lost me along the road.

at what part of "people come to nobles, nobles listen to people" in the chain of things presented did you not see "ORGANIZATIONS DO GET TO RP AND GET INVOLVED IN IT" when i suggest the NOBLES take up the case, i suggested that the case is brought forward to them by= them who stand against= Ministers/ guild reps/ guild members or who ever,, you bring a case forward and have a stance you want to be heard because the Minister in question is not in your mind do what he should be, abuses his power, or repeatedly shows no interest in listening to the public, the Nobles hear you out, they hear the Minister out, they dont walk in and take charge of anything, things are forwarded to them.. that is what i see presented, the Councillors have 100% as much right to do that as the ministers and everyone else.

point being, i dont see how your not seeing that the people DO get a say in the matter, of course they do, because what i have purposed dos indeed work in a way that the intended point of Nobles getting involved is = people having a say in the matter they want to talk about or challenge

i understand a fear your showing to the idea, but honestly, considering the majority of RP currently in the council and numbers have dwindled (and dont just claim at all to people who are off the game.. i know a lot of people just stopped attending, there still online every day like before doing things, just there not gripped by the council anymore.. thats fact, otherwise they would not be in battlegrounds or hunting for RP DURING the council times that is not the council ) to me, its a clear thing that there is clearly not enough being done in the council, by anyone (Councillors or Ministers or well.. any one) for people to feel gripped into showing up,

if the councils focus is to help encourage RP its already in a state of not going anywhere at the moment on that front, even with the small numbers present i still dont see why it would not be able to produce RP content from any who attend it, the Council it self is an RP event but it dos truly fall short in that area even considering the numbers, am i saying thats a single persons fault, no, but im saying its a reality that it has grown to be so stagnant that its function is now to offer guard orders out, ranking positions ICly and go over minor topics that rarely account to anything other than ether a point out on the laws such. Originally i was going to plan my IC training against demonic powers thing (first was my idea for MoM position but im not having a minor thing stop me making it happen) as a just the ninth with me, but after talking with one of there guild and considering the truth of it, i felt it was worth throwing the bone out for people to grip to, because i know that its a rarity to see events going though the council at the moment

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Phenoa Firehart on Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:04 am

Maelmoor wrote:"...soooo like the council does with stormwind law and other stuff that would have been set by the king then? whichever way you swing it that stuff honestly wouldn't be a council or minister thing to make a call on, kings land kings law "

Since no one can RP such NPCs (thankfully) we have created our own framework, which is followed by the guilds and organizations part of the Council, it's a smart way to enhance RP without acting in a name that could provoke or disturb others.
to me that really comes across as we couldnt rp the king so we made our own system of rule that ignores there being a king

Maelmoor wrote:"ok so for this i will point toward my previous comment about the laws being a king thing before pointing out an example of this not being the case, when the dwarves where asking for an embassy (which lore wise already exists by the way) you went ahead and dealt with that personally without any mention of it at the council and only deemed it important to mention it when asking people to pick a location (which seems kind of backwards in scale of importance and also like asking a person what colour glass the want to walk over rather than asking them if they want to walk over glass)"

The Stormwind Embassy Regulation was voted upon of course, so that was already handled as per procedure, it was a co-operation 3-4 years ago between the RP hubs of Stormwind, Darnassus, Ironforge and Exodar to give some depth and provide more RP and it fell out very well. There were lot of meetings and discussions around this that you have not seen, hence based on the snippet above it may seem it lacks background.

so something voted in pre-council reformation was used to justify backdooring something through. none of this information was given to me IC nor was it given to me OOC when i asked everyone about it in the council channel, at the time i was told it just didnt need voting on because you were the minister of foreign affairs. so with your *new* answer Maelmoor i hope you can see that its a bad idea to pull old legislature from the archives without informing the councilors that you keep trying to insist have all the power (even though most of the councilors are also ministers and visa versa).

next bit i'll miss my own quote out of it cause its fairly sizable

Maelmoor wrote:There is a mix of good points, irrelevant points and incorrect points here.
care to point out which are which cause i'd be really interested to know

Maelmoor wrote:So the whole concept of making the community part of the Council, by having the guilds and organizations (to cover up for people without guilds but that may have RP organizations) is that they are part of every decision, of every debate. It is the guilds who decide who should represent them, it can be the same person every week or different ones. Right now I think all guilds based in Stormwind are part of the Council, which is great cause that gives us true transparency into the whole process. I do not recall we ever rejected a guild or organization from a seat at the Council, we even found ways for shady people to take part in a way that makes sense both ICly and OOCly.
not sure which part of my post this is in response to but it seems to have missed the point entirely and the transparency thing couldnt be further from the truth, very few people understand how the council works outside of what they see.

Maelmoor wrote:I do not have any stats on hand but I'm very pleased with the amount of people who have in one way or another been involved, of all the RP that been created.
as is argent dawn its done wonders for their playerbase

Maelmoor wrote:You mentioned your ethics committee, it had nothing to do with the Council but ICly people didn't agree to it, cannot see how that can be a blaming point?
two people at the table had an issue with it to my knowledge yourself and valestrion. one very vocal dwarf also threw in his lot...over my petition. the rest of your table was sending me whispers in support. i already had enough people to begin immediately so the idea was clearly more popular that you are giving it credit for.
so tell me maelmoor who actually had the IC problem, the leader of the council, a paladin and the paladins paladin boss. and this becomes a council wide issue because those seem to be the only opinion that matters at that table. how many weeks were we sitting there making eveline write up draft after draft after draft because valestrion and valestrion alone had an issue with light magic being classed as magic.

Maelmoor wrote:"yes maelmoor by all means i'd love to field this one: Heldrik, the council stood there and let heldrik give the ninth company the ultimatum that to continue Rping as guards they had to get rid of mallicus THEIR GM!


admittedly i lost interest after the circular logic going on after that...and then i saw this"

We always try to keep things ICly and there were a lot of discussions and disagreements around this (all ICly), we also talked about the OOC aspect of not forcing someone into something but to my understand Aramal played along, please correct me if I am wrong here.

consider this me correcting you then, cause everyone was very much aware that this extended out of character. i dont want to go into specific things that were said but not one person bar myself stood up and pointed out that what was going on was wrong, people were either not bothered or for it and it was disgusting. the fact that aramal played along is testament to his devotion to staying in character and in no way excuses the council for what happened.

furthermore the discussions that go on in the private channel are far from this keeping things IC idea in other cases too as i pointed out before valestrion was talking about his new graphics card during an interview rather than participating in the interview. to my knowledge he asked one question by whisper and that was the extent of his interaction.



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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:20 am

Phenoa Firehart wrote:consider this me correcting you then, cause everyone was very much aware that this extended out of character. i dont want to go into specific things that were said but not one person bar myself stood up and pointed out that what was going on was wrong, people were either not bothered or for it and it was disgusting. the fact that aramal played along is testament to his devotion to staying in character and in no way excuses the council for what happened.

sad truth on this matter, i now this story is more true as i heard most of the responses and some of the OOC, i do agree with Phenoa on the topic of it was wrong

a second point that Phenoa brings up is Ministers who are also Councillors, kinda hits the same wall of logic i had to challenge in my own writing of a system , it makes it messy because it blurs that line

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Cid on Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:43 am

Regarding nobility:
Dwarves do have nobility, though Dwarves respect strength as well as bloodlines (if not a royalty/noble with bloodlines, the strongest dwarf tend to become the leader):
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Elven nobility, some show how they earned their title:
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So yes, Dwarves and Elves have at some point of time had nobles in their lines. Draenei I don't know much about, truth be told, since their society seem to be vastly different in many things. Gnomes don't have a monarchy per se, which kindof is the key to having nobility in general from what I've read (Human kingdoms, Dwarven kingdoms, Elven kingdoms etc), so I doubt that they have any nobles, though entirely certain I cannot be.
As for Pandaren... well, no bloody clue. They had an Emperor long ago, but since it was so long ago, all that is either stuff of legends or the like. Until more information is revealed, I would say that Pandaren aren't prone to use fancy titles (sha of pride anyone?). They use titles showing respect, certainly, but they do not seem to have any nobles among them (even if many Pandaren are more noble than many nobles /wink).

For the rest of the thread, I read it from Maelmoor's "earthquake protection" line (will turn into a classic I guess) to here, and I can honestly say:
What in tarnation happened?

I see Maelmoor, Rhena and Ixirar in some form of 'making next to no sense most of the time when writing' contest, along with Hutchins who joined in to that briefly. Overtaking/Overthrowing council (Rhena), talking of percentages of members (Ixirar) and earthquake insurances (Maelmoor). None of that made any sense to me whatsoever, or to the topic at all.

It might just be me who is tired from some REALLY dull work today, but try to make more sense than this. It just looks like you try to spew out random nonsense because it feels uncomfortable to change something. 2 pages of (relatively) nonsensical arguing and bickering as to why the Council shouldn't change anything... It looks like a fertilizer tank exploded all over it. Seriously, grow a pair and stop this farce.

Cid wrote:People who ignore the advice and voices of others are bad roleplayers, and the general roleplayer dislike such displays and ignore the bad roleplayer... or leave the realm if many enough are doing it.
Which isn't entirely surprising when it comes to the case of Defias Brotherhood.
I long thought it was due to griefers and gankers that caused them to turn away, but that was not the thing. I wager many turned to griefing and ganking of roleplayers after being so utterly disappointed with the RP community here, or deciding to leave for Argent Dawn and its plethora of roleplay, thus further deteriorating the quality of this servers RP.

While this may offend some here, do note that there has been a major exodus of roleplayers from DB to AD. I long thought griefers and gankers were the major cause behind this, but it could just as well be the disappointment many felt or still feel with the community here.
This quote come from the 'Council opinions thread', which voice concerns with how things currently stand. If someone for instance want to try do something interesting with the community, they are met with the excuse "we have too few people around". When people suggest something to recruit more people to the server, nothing happens whatsoever, no process of thought, NOTHING.

Is the community here content with having this few numbers of roleplayers, slowly bleeding out its life to AD? Is the community pleased with the current situation, and want to change nothing? Here we have something that could aid all of us to get more attention to our server, but instead certain people ramble on about random crap to try dismantle the need for change. Some might protest and claim that "the Council is not the community" or the like, but the thing is, the community is involved with the Council to such extent that the boundaries blur out.

The questions remains though:
Are we happy with how things are on Defias Brotherhood? A wounded server bleeding out roleplayers into the bucket of Argent Dawn? Or should we try mend the wounds and get back on our feet? Sorry for getting out of the actual topic, but it connects back to it since this discussion affects more than just Stormwind RP. It affects all of us.

Time for me to actually go enjoy the game and the new content added. Hope I got through with the message, and didn't leave any confusion.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:48 pm

Cid wrote:While this may offend some here, do note that there has been a major exodus of roleplayers from DB to AD.

this is a thing that has took my attention as well, mostly because of knowing a number of there AD from DB travelers , and its pretty much a flat thing i hear every time "community issues"

i would hope truly that people might start to take it a little more serious that the community these people leave because of some what or another ties in with where the majority lies, the council is a bigger part of the commuity then i think as Phenoa also pointed out, its one of the first places people who join our realm looking for RP get pointed too, before most others, most RPers have been there, id even wager at least 80% of the RP community has at least been to it

Cid wrote:Some might protest and claim that "the Council is not the community" or the like, but the thing is, the community is involved with the Council to such extent that the boundaries blur out.

this is somewhat an issue i found out when i tried the first time to see Aramals attempt at this HoN, he tried to do it away form the council, and its foundation suffered because of an issue i cant really see how you get past, all of the politics of SW are part of the council, meaning unless you are involved in the council, this entire event is for nothing, as it cannot act on the political matters unless you start to drift it away from what the council so far that were both separating insistence of political stands (in other words, one group will of come to conclusion A and othert group have come up with B, but there both talking about the same thing) which gets messy again as you have one group following the council on political matters and the other going at it with no involvement to the other is clearly just leading into a shit pile of mess, now as ALL the nobles are somewhat involved in the council community, this gets even more pointless, it leads to more problems and leads to yet again, ether its allowed into the door of the councils workings, or it might as well just die a peaceful death as it wont find a place to RP

so my point is, if the Nobles event gets burned down with resistance all the way,, im not going to whine and /cry at it, but im under no illusions its an RP platform that dos not work without co-oporation and working with the Council, because otherwise its just not going to do anything or ever find a way of becoming something, i pitched you guys an idea,, i personally purpose IMHO the council is not exactly in a strong future standing from what iv seen, i intend on promoting some more RP for people to be involved in, mi still 100% convinced that this will STILL be better than what you have now , regardless of flaws you throw out at the idea, all iv seen are debates that so far dont disprove it, are meaningless and a bunch of people who honestly i feel are probably more threatened by the idea of there positions being less stable than they are at looking at the bigger picture, otherwise the reply to this topic would be more constructive

so to put it simply, i figured out that without the politics of the council  involved with the Nobles event , it dos...... nothing, has no place, no purpose, and is 100% pointless to progress

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Maelmoor on Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:06 pm

We could argue back and forward for a year if not more and I doubt we will come to any conclusion as people have vastly different opinions, there are four ways to take this forward.

(in no specific order)

1) HoN and Council goes on in two separate tracks
Not keen of this option myself, as it risks to cause split and drama but if no other option can be agreed to this is a way forward, some people can stick with the HoN project and others with the Council.

2) Agreement to co-operate
Right now it seems difficult, not sure if a chat session or IC session could be of any help, both sides would have to give and take to make it work and the result is of course unknown.

3) Leave it be for now
Also an option in order to focus on the Legion and pick it up at later point when things calmed down a bit.

4) Decide ICly
At some point we would need to handle this ICly anyway, maybe create some sort of election or similar to decide upon it ICly?

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:10 pm

Maelmoor wrote:2) Agreement to co-operate
Right now it seems difficult, not sure if a chat session or IC session could be of any help, both sides would have to give and take to make it work and the result is of course unknown.

the entire point of this thread is because it requires OOC acceptance or understanding of where we go with it if this is ever going to be a thing ... i dont want to pursue something IC knowing OOC there is resisting views based on OOC problems they are seeing, it wont go no where

Maelmoor wrote:4) Decide ICly
At some point we would need to handle this ICly anyway, maybe create some sort of election or similar to decide upon it ICly?

this is open to debate, honestly, i felt the pre patch and all the shit going on led for a very legitimate possibility of using this to push it forward in story .. i agree it leads down this path ether way but i think my point above stands to the test of it.. if people are OOCly resisting it all the way though and trying to deny it from within because of fears or such, it dont matter iif it would or would not of worked because that alone will cull its chances of progression

i agree with the idea of not going down path 1 maelmoor because i do fear that is the case of it, causing splitting of minds between the two.. and i doubt the council will lose to it but i do think ether way it will negatively impact not positive taking two different roads, so id rather see nothing or something with it just to avoid that reality

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Mallucis on Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:36 pm

Rhena wrote:So anyone who claims to have enough money could rule the city?

Yes, and no. Rhena, think of your experiences in social sphere. It always works like this, that sooner or later one person takes the role of a leader; but it rarely happens if there is a group already, a newcomer arrives and starts to rule the rest. It takes a lot of time, but this is how society works. Wealthy or not, it's all about being known and affirmed.
It's not enough to say: Hi! I'm new and from day 1 I will roleplay a rich lord, so now I set the rules.

Hutchins wrote:The logic there is sound, obviously, although the thing to consider when comparing it to IRL things is that IRL we don't exactly have Elves and Draenei wondering about.

And? Elves are the oldest race, they would have noble houses lasting for thousands of years. Draenei the same. I don't see the problem here.

There is another one, actually. Feudal system was simple: I name myself a lord, I find vassals eager to answer my call (no matter if I'm wealthy enough, strong enough, or intelligent enough). I promise them land and wealth in return for armed service during wars, raids, or campaigns. I conquer the land, I divide it between my vassals, as I obviously cannot govern it all by myself. I give them titles to be able to distinguish them, dukes are directly below me, then barons, lords, etc. As in military I can give orders only to those directly below me. As the saying goes: the vassal of my vassal is not my vassal.

So, of course, the problem lies with the fief. King Wrynn, as the supreme suzerain of Stormwind Kingdom, cannot distribute lands he himself does not own. For example, King Varian cannot give to Aramal Blackstone, heir of House Blackwood the right to wield the title "Lord of Blackwood" as Blackwood Barony was a fief to House Menethil, and is not controlled by neither Stormwind nor the Alliance (even if a country is in NATO it doesn't mean Poland can distribute lands of Germany or vice versa).

Therefore, your assumption that Gilneans would be somehow valid in Stormwind is a little over-stretched. Gilneas is in Alliance, but their territory lies elswhere, and House Wrynn has nothing to say about it, neither have Gilneas in terms of Stormwind lands. Your character, therefore, would be perceived as a representative of a minority faction, or a government in exile. If your character is not a citizen of Stormwind, that is (still, imagine a Japanese guy in the government of your country; as beautiful as it may appear, he wouldn't have got many supporters).

High Elves are not jerks, they have noble houses there. Night Elves would be an exemption, but only those who actually follow the path of Elune (no one is forced to be a druid). Lord Ravencrest was a good example.

Dwarves have clans with a strong division on those important and less important clan members (Thanes, remember). Before the Council of Three Hammers was established they had a king under the mountain, who had a daughter.

Gnomes are the youngest race, and I think they would resemble an academic environment, rather than bloodline (professors and engineers above apprentices). Gelbin Mekkatorque could be the first to make a change.

Draenei seem to not have any strong bond to their bloodline, but their society is also well structured. A noble Draenei would simply be a renown one.

Pandaren do have family bonds, not to look far - Stormstout family, the greatest distillers of all (they surely have or had had something to say). They are more tranquil and tuned with the simple life, but they honour: "knowledge passed from one generation to another."

Hutchins wrote:Although this is REALLY off the current topic I think to discuss. Moving on...

I though we were discussing about the House of Nobles? If people do not know what does it mean to be a noble, then what we are discussing?

Fenodyree wrote:I don't think the "House of Nobles" itself should be an RP organisation, full stop.

It was in the past on multiple occasions and has been for over half a year now. Although, for a very long time it was just a playground for all those looking for roleplaying something different. You, Fenodyree, fancy working by the anvil. Some fancy fancy dresses and sophisticated vocabulary. It wouldn't be wise to forbid that.

Azapha wrote:now moving onto the final point, i brought this up with Maelmoor and i dont think the subject really hit home in our /w chat on the topic, when we was talking of the direction of the Nobles RP, now.. Mall tried to start this up torn away from the council, i know this as i entered it my self and tried to see how it wuold take off, it suffered a huge issue, which was that it had no focus or ability to set it self one,, why? well, i dont know if mall figured it out but i did pretty fast.

Heh, I know exactly why I formed it. Again, to educate people about "nobility" (it's really sad roleplaying a knight when you are treated like a black-jewish-gay factory worker by the rest), and to help people like Sky Bloodbath, who once entered the Council room, proposed one of the most useful of events but was immediately stopped, as she did not present any details on how would it work, when, etc. (it was during the RP crisis in spring 2015, when Council sessions lasted 15 minutes and there was nothing to do; the project was: "Stormwind Visitors Centre;" it never took off as Sky resigned from it and started to do what the rest: stand there by the table and smell). Maelmoor said they had to move on and the case was lost from that moment, as Sky was too fresh and was lacking contacts. I realised, that no one even tries to address these new "entrepreneurs," too "young" to set things in motion but willing to bring something to the table. "Big fish," that was the name for us, this is how we were perceived by newcomers. How many of these spent more than a month on DB before going to AD?

Azapha wrote:the RP event is about POLITICS

In a way, but good politics is when you use all the contacts you know to create something (and be very often forgotten in the process), rather than to entre the Petitioner's Chamber and yell that the Council is corrupted. If Stormwind had 10 Maelmoors then there would be an event everyday. On the other hand, 10 Azaphas... (horns, imps, fel staffs, bloodmagic, soulstones 24h a day and a lot of /y). Wink

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:As a hypothetical, would you consider it feasible for member guilds to be afforded council seats proportional to the percentage of membership that their guild makes up? So if a guild is 35% of the total membership of guilds/organisations in the council, they'd get 35% of the total amount of seats in the council. This would mean that each guild member has the same numerical representation in the council, but it'd also present other issues. For example, would you grant seats based purely on character count? Or would you only grant seats based on members that are active parts of the guilds/organisations? If the latter, how would you verify who is and who isn't active enough to count toward the total number? Also, what if one guild manages to fill up to 51% of the total membership count? Their representatives would then get to dictate every decision made in the council. You'd need countermeasures, then, to ensure that the interests of smaller guilds are also represented.

To prevent this from happening, in my former idea there was something known to me from medieval history of my country: the right of veto. This way no matter how many votes one party may have, how many arms a family may collect, if only one says: veto, then it cannot go in this form. This way the House of Nobles wouldn't be about power play, but about agreement - you meet and discuss until all can reach an agreement (I do realise the consequence, but assuming people are stupid and immature always leads to dictatorship, in this way or another).

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:51 pm

Rhena wrote:Everyone's stories are as made up anyway.

yes and by that same logic the "your a warlock " dos not work ether, im not saying i care about that but my point being, my character in a story is a warlock, that effected the choices made by the council, you argued it played a role that handicapped me and was fine that it was a story thing there, but your saying if my story also says im a noble it should not have any impact on my character ether or how she is preserved by others ?

Rhena wrote:The thing is, when you choose to roleplay something like a warlock, death knight, demon hunter or shadow priest you place yourself in a difficult situation. You basically close some doors by roleplaying a character that practices such magics. As we know, there has before been an in character warlock (maybe several, idk?) in the Council, but they chose not to practice their magic, atleast not so that people would consider them a warlock.

my point being, this works two ways around, you cant in one debate use someones reason for being handicapped in a situation was because of there story and justify that as ok then say that a story that gives you a bonus dos not seem fair then, you ether A agree that character storys and backgrounds DO effect what they can and cannot easily achieve, or your dont, you cant be on both sides of the fence arguing both

Rhena wrote:Also, if the Nobles ran the council there would be less of variation from guilds being represented. I really don't see a reason to change the system. We can always improve the old one if there is something that needs to be improved.

please please PLEASE.. read the suggestions of what is ACTUALLY being suggested than just assuming, this is not what is being suggested, will the council have nobles walking around running it telling people what to do = no... will the nobles be doing the minister jobs = NO.. so who runs the laws, magic and everything else still.. the COUNCIL, where dos the nobles come into it = the pubic are sick of the nobles money being wasted into funding XYZ minister because of XYZ reasons, people complain, the nobles THEN, get involved. do they suddenly take up minister positions= no... do they decide if your deemed good enough = depends, if enough people make a public outcry or you do something that is REALLY bad and someone points it out, then yes, they stop funding you, your pay check is gone and your office is cleaned out, but was it because the nobles wanted you out from the start= NO.. its because the people pushed the nobles to get rid of you.. the idea here is not what your selling it as, read it and learn what is being suggested or dont try and comment on what is being discussed, because your only then saying things without any idea what your arguing

and i understand you might not see a reason for change, but i do.. because the council is and has been getting more and more dead as time has gone by, you can deny it, but it is, and the most common reality i see to the council that are told to me when i ask people is along the lines of "its stale " or "nothing happening " because its true, events dont come into the council, the only group who shows up with more than one or two is your own guild, (sometimes the ninth) and most weeks see nothing happen other than laws or other bickering over crap that most people dont really care about, sure ill get involved in these talks ICly.. but thats because A i can and im here to RP and B well what else am i going to do, tab out and watch youtube?.. dont blame the lack of council on the Xpac ether.. or pre legion , sure it might pick up SOME, but i still wager the numbers would be lower after than the amount lost

Do i think a rework of the rules as they are is enough to fix that issue = no.. truth be told the only future that is positive is to bring more RP to the council (my 100% opinion on the matter) , now sure im purposing an RP im intending to play in, because iv been RPing this with Maelmoor/Seb/Mira/Aramal (on his alt) until he left and feine ... we came to a situation where the reality is, all the politics that are currently common topics to want to talk on... the council already takes governing involvement in, find one it dos not, you will be hard pressed to try and cover an area of politics that dos not cross over into the councils workings already, sure i could do as i said, isolate it off and work independently from you guys, but then im just making crap up that contradicts your politics , this becomes messy when you still take involvement in the council, however i could see the Nobles event been a good host for some purposed ideas that could easily offer the council some more RP = give the council something to offer to the larger community it trys to accommodate for

Mallucis wrote:On the other hand, 10 Azaphas...

Mall why would you even want to think on what that would be like,, wow, scary

Mallucis wrote:to entre the Petitioner's Chamber and yell that the Council is corrupted

oh come on that speech was epic, totally called for .. and ICly my toon meant every damn word (and yes she did pretty much name most of the table, she didnt pick favorites, you was all as bad as each other in her mind )

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Reyxor - Urgual on Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:26 am

Without reading fully all the lengthy posts in this thread to keep up what has already been said. Bounced around and figured a bit what I'd like to have going regarding the HoN and Council.

The House of Nobles status in the Kingdom:
Since the nobles are considered to be at the top of the social hierarchy, having gold, other wealth or influence in some way in relation to the kingdom and thus can influence more than a regular citizen, it should come with terms. I guess one can become a noble by announcing a character to have some prosperity or belong to such a house, which enables one to roleplay a noble. Well I think it's made a bit light weight, to be a noble. I'm unaware of all the details how the current situation is with HoN, but with the community approved status as a noble, there should be commitments.

The Council:
King's appointed ministers and other decision makers, although it all has to be done by voting, due to there is no King to be had for one to roleplay with. Council makes the top of the bureaucracy of the Kingdom, they arrange the things, that are required by the King, nobles and citizens. They are there to serve the common good of the Kingdom.  

The HoN and the Council:
Nobles are not at the top, it's the King who is above the nobles, and his appointed ministers as well, are at above any noble with their title as a minister. Also the nobles need to pay more taxes, provide horses, soldiers and be ready to serve the king, when it's necessary with their wealth and influence the nobles have or else they are not nobles.

So I think there should be some sort of system for being a noble, it would erase the possibility that there is someone in the city claiming to be noble, yet has nothing else to bring with it than his empty pockets with a title that says, "I'm above you all, I'm a noble, yet I have no commitments."

So Council takes orders from the King, I think, and the nobles are supporting the King via the council, or directly, in some cases. Council arranges the taxes for the nobles, noble can complain for the taxes, yet lose some credibility in the mean time, if they complain without good reasons or something like that.

Conclusion:
I've only been slightly disgusted about the nobles, who might only be there so that they can be above everyone else. That is also more close to reality, that there aren't nobles without commitments. No king will leave such a noble in peace who has something the King might also use.

So like when compared to usable trees: nobles are the fruit trees, citizens are trees for lumber, Council is the woodcutters and apple pickers and King eats the apples and builds the ships. Slightly joking with this metaphor.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Reynard on Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:57 am

Mallucis wrote:
Fenodyree wrote:I don't think the "House of Nobles" itself should be an RP organisation, full stop.

It was in the past on multiple occasions and has been for over half a year now. Although, for a very long time it was just a playground for all those looking for roleplaying something different. You, Fenodyree, fancy working by the anvil. Some fancy fancy dresses and sophisticated vocabulary. It wouldn't be wise to forbid that.

I really don't want to derail this thread (it's hard enough to follow already) but just for clarity, I'm not for a moment saying people should not be able to RP nobles - of course they should be able to.  I wholey support the idea of a Gathering of Nobles (Skarain's name for such an organization) - which can do whatever it wants.

What I'm arguing against is people RPing members of an organization which, in lore, sets laws.  Because I personally don't see that it's right that any RPer should be able to make laws which force any other RP to act in a certain way.

Possibly I'm in a minority there of course.  Smile

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Skarain on Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:58 am

What I recommend is:

1.) Gather up everyone who are interested of the "House/Gathering of Nobles" of types of event. (Myriah, Mallucis, Azapha, ???)

2.) Iron out the details on what do you hope from said organisation. I strongly recommend to not be in any kind of direct contact with the King, since no-one can claim they have the ear of the NPC ruler.

3.) Present the "Ironed out" details in a Reader-friendly fashion, akin to my own suggestion/proposal, or otherwise simple. Leave out the "political fancy writing" from this draft.

4.) Have each Councillor/Minister/Whatever involved in the Council to read it, and agree upon some minor changes if need be.

After this, I suggest that you do the following:

Every Minister/Councillor/Whatever & Nobles will agree that you will be "testing out" the new system for 1 month. You will put the old system on hold and run out the new, with all the changes it entails.

You all will agree that after 1 month, you will gather up and discuss among every player who have been part of the project: "Does this new system work better than the old one?"

You all will agree that after said 1 month, you will revert back into the old system, if the old system has proven to be more effective in creating roleplaying. Likewise, if the new system has proven out to be better tool at creating roleplaying, you will stick to the new system.

You will agree to this OOC and IC, under whatever excluse, be it "King Anduin has "requested" us to try "something new"" or anything.

---

There is no harm in trying out something new. If it does not work, you will revert back to the old.

How does that sound?

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Cid on Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:54 am

1 month is too short time I'd say, but I agree that a testing period is needed to get the feel and hang of things.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:00 am

I will update what I purposed since I have seen some constructive comments (again thank you skarain,  the gathering of nobles you purposed,  I'm stealing it as a Base to re write it)

As I said before,  due to the current situation with pre patch we have some IC grounds we can play on to implement this, it was more of an ooc focus as let's be honest,  with no ooc Co operating,  we can't really do much Smile,  ether way I had expected to find some improvements as the OP was a first draft

I kinda have to agree with cid, 1 month I see as a little short although a testing period is clearly better than setting anything in stone without question

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Maelmoor on Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:26 am

Skarain wrote:I strongly recommend to not be in any kind of direct contact with the King, since no-one can claim they have the ear of the NPC ruler.

You will agree to this OOC and IC, under whatever excluse, be it "King Anduin has "requested" us to try "something new"" or anything.


I am sure we could agree OOCly to something, whatever it may be but this piece I am allergic too where 95% of the RP is decided OOCly and then this gathering of nobles will ICly come to the Council and say they have orders from the King, isn't that what we have tried to avoid all the time? Saying against that would be seen as treason so there would be no option then?

For me the IC piece will always be more important, I am not a fan of RP where you ICly have to be accept something cause it was all decided oocly.

I will always try to be true to my character first and foremost and I think ICly its where this piece will be difficult to agree upon.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Skarain on Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:51 am

Skarain wrote:I strongly recommend to not be in any kind of direct contact with the King, since no-one can claim they have the ear of the NPC ruler.

You will agree to this OOC and IC, under whatever excluse, be it "King Anduin has "requested" us to try "something new"" or anything.
Mind, this was just an idea that spring to my mind and I tossed it as one suggestion.

If you can find a better excuse to allow things proceed more smooth and less king'ly involvement included, I'd say "go for it". Smile

The reason why I personally proposed to discuss it a bit OOC first was due to the fact that communicating Out of Character is 'faster'.

Otherwise, you will have to wait up until a SW Council, or gather up every member involved outside of the Council and propose the idea there, have a lengthy discussion and in the end push the project back another few weeks while the details are still ironed to make for a compromise (or some evidence gathered in order to blackmail those who disagree ICly to end up agreeing).

Still, it's just a suggestion. Whatever route you go with it is entirely up for those involved. As long as things proceed and go forward, instead of simply stopping by the drawing board (this thread).

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:31 am

Well going of skarains variation of what I purposed, who is ICly funding the councils existence and paying the ministers wage?  Part of the reason I ask is because realistically it has to come from somewhere?  Now if your avoiding the king and we're trying are hardest to avoid his name being involved in anything,  I'd have to assume that some rich bastards are paying somewhere, the reason this had to go OOCly was because i wrote it on the assumption the nobles are funding the council in the first place, or would be funding what the Ministers are payed and projects they take on , now ICly its a bit hard to clarify as you dont have any links to the king and well, that takes away the whole "kingdom funds it" idea as that would be the king who did so

Maelmoor wrote:For me the IC piece will always be more important, I am not a fan of RP where you ICly have to be accept something cause it was all decided oocly.

agreed, but having to know what boundary this is allowed to test and also see what changes i need to make to the original write up was a good idea first .. Secondly , were purposing something which i know has been swept under the rug as to "where the ministers are being payed from" and stuff like that.. its a bit hard to try ICly to touch it when you guys are employed by non existent people who up until now i assumed was "the king".. in simple terms, because you run on the idea that this is just covered for you and you dont really have an answer to that question, we dont really have any paths into this because your just going to be like "well were payed already" as ministers and then probably half of you will say "by the king" if they have not looked over this thread which would be the same thing we discussed earlier as a nono

Im not attacking you on the fact that you most likely haven not really put much thought into it, until now it probably has not really been an important question to ask, who the ministers and the council is funded by .. but if we progressed this into IC, it would kinda be a question thats relevant as it comes into it, whos going to agree to anything when your on the assumption that your payed by someone we dont know, you get what ever funding you need from where ever, lets be honest ICly if you go in on that kinda mind set you guys are ICly just going to say no

Skarain wrote:Nobles = People with Money. People with Land. People with lots of possession. People with some fancy titles.

Ministers = People Hired/Commissioned by the Nobles for a Job. Their paycheck coming from the Nobles. Their job = to work forward improvement of the Kingdom.

Reason = If the Kingdom prospers, more Money flows, Nobles get even more rich.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:54 am

Skarain wrote:Whatever route you go with it is entirely up for those involved. As long as things proceed and go forward, instead of simply stopping by the drawing board (this thread).

Unfortunately due to most the council members refusing to get involved in the topic and a clear stop in the replys to questions, I feel that this is going to end up being left on the "drawing board" , a little disappointing as me and others poured effort into trying to build on this but i cant force people to try get involved in discussion, also Maelmoor not attending the last meeting somewhat hindered any chance of pushing this into IC discussion ((although i STILL think some things are needed to be cleared out OOCly before i can honestly progress to ICly acting on it due to reasons posted in last post))

Maelmoor wrote:I will always try to be true to my character first and foremost and I think ICly its where this piece will be difficult to agree upon.

this would be like saying to your employer who pays your wage that you dont agree to being payed for your job and want to work unpayed.. im not saying this as a way to force this into effect, just pointing out the logic of the situation

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:03 am

You're not Maelmoor's employer though...

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by siegmund on Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:01 am

council members refusing to get involved in the topic


Do all of them even know of this thread, this forum? Or they outright said they don't want to get involved via chat?

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

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