House of Nobles open discussion

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House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:34 pm

okay so me and Maelmoor got talking about this a while back and has a pretty lengthy talk about how the house of nobles was presented in the lore and what root we could really take considering. we had our lore reference

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:The House of Nobles form the bureaucracy of the Kingdom of Stormwind and is under the direction of the ruling family: House of Wrynn. King Varian Wrynn currently occupies the throne and acts as the head of government. The House of Nobles is comprised of some of Stormwind's most powerful aristocratic bloodlines and positions in this governing body are typically inherited.[1] They serve a legislative role as they are able to lobby for legislative issues [2] and serve as the judiciary branch for the kingdom as they are able to overrule regional elected officials on matters of law.[3][4]


so after me and Maelmoor spoke some on the topic, this ended up with the subject of how the House of Nobles really fits in with the councils approach, the council is 100% not the house of nobles. he asked me if i could write up one for a look and we wanted to take it into a different path, talking politics, land, serve as the judiciary branch for the kingdom.
he asked me to make a set of rules and stuff and see what i could make after, iv shown him this then we have spoken about it. hes said he is happy for me to post this here for you guys to read

"This is the First draft of rules I have created, I expect them to be subject to change and improvement before being implemented, however there are some OOC rules I am implementing that should be made clear, we are meant to answer to the king, his house is the leading house and has the final say in matters. Now we cannot RP the king, his an NPC, but the HoN would also work without his presence, the Secretary is meant to record and send information to him.  

This means that ICly.. are characters know that somethings would just be rejected without good reason, because they would be, we assume if we sent the king a message that we fired someone from their position without any reason we would be answerable to question of corruption, no noble wants to lose standing with the King, so we are not as it were, unanswerable to. The House of Nobles ((and its members,)) can be accused of violating his/her/their oath, this is a crime

I believe the Ministers with this implementation no longer need to get permission of the other ministers before doing their duty, instead they now have to be usurped for making a bad call, not prevented in the first place. In effect we are giving Ministers more power over their own role, while a little less say in another Ministers role, the House of Nobles still does not hold any say in how that minister acts, but if the case is brought forward to question (by other ministers / public concern) a case can be made, I have made it more difficult for a Minister to be overruled because I want it to be hard to do"


Skarain wrote:"Gathering" of Nobles

Nobles = People with Money. People with Land. People with lots of possession. People with some fancy titles.

Ministers = People Hired/Commissioned by the Nobles for a Job. Their paycheck coming from the Nobles. Their job = to work forward improvement of the Kingdom.

Reason = If the Kingdom prospers, more Money flows, Nobles get even more rich.

No King Involved

No-one can be Minister + Noble same time.
_______

Stormwind Council

Councillors = Representatives of different guilds and organisations, the Voice of the People.

Ministers = Individuals hired by Nobles to forward improvement of the Kingdom, each in their own designate area.

Meeting Purpose = Announcements, News. No Voting whatsoever.

Minister Purpose = Listen & Work together with People in their designate area. Forward idea > Listen Feedback > Execute/Dump Idea. Ministers use Nobles money to Execute idea.

People feedback, Minister no Listen = People complain to Nobles. Nobles question Minister. Offence Big enough (and/or) Public outcry big enough> Nobles dump Minister.

Minister does job good = Everyone is happy. More Roleplaying all-around

Ministers does job bad = Nobles question Minister. If no improvement, Nobles dump Minister.

this above is pretty much it in a nut shell..thank you very much Skarain for this

I (name of Member) do solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm, that I will be faithful and bare true allegiance to His Majesty King Varian Wrynn, her heirs and successors, according to law. I shall not allow self gain or corruption to break this oath. Long live the King.


Rules of the House of Nobles  

* All members of the House of Nobles must of read, understood and sign the ledger of the house of nobles before they are permitted to take a seat

* Nobles within the House of Nobles are there to Represent the interests of His Majesty the King and the Kingdom. The Representative Honored to open the session is by decree to announce the Oath of the house of Nobles, after which all seat holders are to agree to their Oath before the session may begin.

* The opening of The house of Nobles is to be done by His majesty the King, in his absence the honor of opening the session will be done on a rotational basis where by each week the session will be started by a chosen representatives of the house.

* All Votes in the House of Nobles are to be done clockwise starting from the honored house with opening the session. unless stated by decree vote done in a majority system

* Nobles in the house who take up a Ministry positions is during their service not allowed to vote or make decisions, they still have a seat and may take involvement in debates and topics discussed whist working within a Ministry but are only permitted to advise.

* Misconduct during the House of Nobles meeting such as drunk and disorderly, showing unwarranted aggression physical or otherwise will result in the member been asked to leave until the next meeting, in severe cases or repeated incidents the matter may be brought up during the house of nobles and in severe cases they may have their seat revoked in the House of nobles.

* Seat holders who are found to be in doubt of their oath are to be judged under the Law of oath breaking, in actions that’s intent is found to be against the kingdom or His Majesty the King are to be judged as Treason under law.

House of Nobles Decree

* The House of Nobles Withholds the right to overrule elected officials such as Ministers if the House deems a decision, action or lack thereof goes against accepted practices or goes against the best interests of the kingdom. in such a case as described above an accuser and the official in question will present their case before the house of nobles, after which time they will be expected to vacate the room whilst the house deliberates and takes a vote, such a vote must be unanimous amongst the house in order to pass. if a party fails to attend then the other opposition shall present their case and the house of nobles shall make a decision based on presented information and other evidence presented prior. in such case that a party is unable to attend then notice should be provided no later than 72 hours before the hearing

* The House of Nobles has the authority to elect Ministerial officials. Applications are to be sent via letter to the House of Nobles where by a summons will be sent to the applicant. The case of electing a Minister is first discussed among the house of Nobles before the applicant is presented before them and are permitted to present a case of their suitability. The house of nobles may ask any questions during the presentation after which the house may again discuss the applicant more, after all applicants have been presented for a position the House of Nobles will deliberate until they are ready to vote.

* The House of Nobles reserves the right to remove a Minister From their position in circumstances that the house feels that their role is being misused or not fulfilled. in such a case the Minister will be given a summons to be present their self before the House of Nobles and be informed of concerns/issues regarding their current duties, after all points have been raised by the House of Nobles the Minister will be allowed to Bring to the Houses attention any additional information or perspective they wish for the house to consider when making their decision. The house of Nobles will deliberate on the matter after which they will vote on the course of action to take.

* The House of Nobles advises the king in matters of tax and other general decree. Any house may petition adjustments to current taxes or decrees. In his Majesty the King's absence the petition may still be raised and discussed however no changes can be made without the approval of His majesty the King who's seal will be required to enact such changes, the voting will be instead to forward the petition to His Majesty the King as a matter of urgency at the soonest possible time.

so this is what i presented .. i wont claim to it all being my own work, it has taken a number of heads to make this thing real, plan it out and think over a few problems we came across on the way.. free to suggestions, questions, input


Last edited by Azapha on Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Skarain added a much simpler way of explaining what this is in less RP fluffed up make up of what it looks like , i have added it to main post)

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:10 pm

some questions i have already been asked by Skarain when i was seeking some advice on this

Skarain wrote: If HoN is Overseer of Council, you do not fear for the possibility on when some Nobles powerplay and crush a potentially great idea wanted to go forward by a Minister?

the overruling ministers rules has been made so that it is harder to over rule than anything else.. as it has to be a unanimous vote, ministers are already over ruling each other now, but in this system it is considerably harder to do than there one is.. where as right of now the ministers have to agree with other ministers to put forwards there plans, they no longer have to do that.. because imho the minister of magic should NOT have to have permission by other ministers to do his job

so.. instead of being a talk before they take action.. they are ALLOWED to do there duty without consent of other ministers.. but if there actions are questioned by other ministers then it can be raised into the HoN where both sides get to present there case

I think its a bit silly the minister of justice need the permission of other ministers who do not do his job to do his/her job.. it seems rather backwards.. ministers should ALREADY have that right.. but instead they are able to be scrutinized if there actions raise debate as to if it was lawful or what ever
so.. all that has happened on that part is .. we have given them that right , and we challenge it after if it is considered wrong .. not put it down before it starts

On another note, the House of Nobles has to have a case presented before them before they are able to made any actions, the case is to be presented first by an "accuser" who will bring the debate to the House of nobles attention , and the Minister in question in the case of over ruling would have every right to defend his actions or give a perspective for the House of Nobles to view, and after all that the entire house must agree (unanimous vote) if there is to be an overrule.

Skarain wrote:What purpose will the Stormwind Council hold? A public gathering, in where matters may be brought up, raised, announcements given, and the ministers whose job falls under it will take it to act upon it?

The Council it self is a public gathering event, the Ministers do as they are meant to be doing, being Ministers with there job and doing what they need to do as before, and there duty's have not changed

The House of Nobles is a political driven RP, there are many political things that just quiet simply the council dos not really have the time to discuss in an open session, take a debate on the laws, land ownership or trading roots for an example, where 30 mins to an hour is realistically the time it could take to cover the topic at hand (and it could extend beyond). the house of nobles is a platform that stands better for dealing with a long debated topic than the council does, it allows for things to be discussed at length so it opens a doorway for these kind of interactions that i feel is often a challenge for the council to really deliver.

where as the council is somewhat pressed to keep things within a time limit to allow for others to step up or speak, the House of Nobles could easily spend its night talking over two debates without suffering as it is not trying to serve as a hub for community, so in effect, we are indeed giving both a clear separation in what both do

skarain wrote:Who oversees the Overseers?

House of Noble members are under oath (you have to be to even be allowed to take your seat) which leaves them open to Law's question if they begin to not play nice, Oath-breaking is a law and Treason is also a consideration if someone really oversteps there line.. the House of Nobles is far from unanswerable to, if a group flocked in with a case presented showing signs of corruption, then it is fully possible to try and take action in law against House of Noble members. this is a reality of working under oath

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:09 am

Forgive me if I missed it somewhere in your post, but how would one be chosen for a seat in the house of nobles?

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Maelmoor on Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:57 am

While I might not agree with it as a whole I felt it was best to bring it up to the community for feedback and thoughts since it's a major change to the political RP scene.

I have some concerns myself, one is the "use" of the King in RP, in the Council we have avoided that as of experience it can end up in situations where the King is used as a tool in RP. Since the King would have the chairman seat in this House of Nobles one could argue that everything that is decided would be the Kings will or decision, thus making it impossible to even argue against or it could be seen as treason.

we are meant to answer to the king, his house is the leading house and has the final say in matters. Now we cannot RP the king, his an NPC, but the HoN would also work without his presence, the Secretary is meant to record and send information to him.  

This means that ICly.. are characters know that somethings would just be rejected without good reason, because they would be, we assume if we sent the king a message that we fired someone from their position without any reason we would be answerable to question of corruption, no noble wants to lose standing with the King

While the wording is better now this would still mean HoN would have to assume what the King would reject or accept, since he is sitting in the HoN and has the final say. When a Minister or the Council takes a decision they can be blamed for it, it can be discussed and argued in a more free way. What if HoN disagrees on what the assumption of the King would be?

The opening of The house of Nobles is to be done by His majesty the King, in his absence the honor of opening the session will be done on a rotational basis where by each week the session will be started by a chosen representatives of the house.

Are you going to RP that he is always absent then? If so does this need to be included even?

where as right of now the ministers have to agree with other ministers to put forwards there plans
This is not true, a Minister can work on his own and do plans and set them in motion, only when there is something major, such as law changes it needs to be voted about (which makes sense I think), then it is voted about by the Council, not Ministers.

Nobles in the house who take up a Ministry positions is during their service not allowed to vote or make decisions, they still have a seat and may take involvement in debates and topics discussed whist working within a Ministry but are only permitted to advise.

Same should apply then to Councillors, it would be odd if people sit on both seats and vote, since not Ministers but Councillors got voting rights in the Council.

The House of Nobles has the authority to elect Ministerial officials.

Doing in the Council as we do now ends up in an open voting, where everyone can attend and see what is happening, it results in involving people more and also can lead to RP, many times dicussions have continued in taverns and such afterwards, since the HoN has closed sessions this would be missed out. Council had closed session in it's early days but it only lead to excluding people and the stamp of "elitism".

The current format of the Council, where every order/organization based in Stormwind can apply for a seat is also good for the community as a whole, in many cases it's been an introduction to RP and I know many who met people and got involved this way.

With a small community as ours is there bandwidth for this? Could it lead to split and disagreements?

Last but not least, how to handle this ICly? Why would the Council agree to this?

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:11 am

Yeah, I was gonna wait for a response to my query before providing solid feedback but I'll just say I agree fully with everything Maelmoor just posted. If your concept relies on authority granted by the king it's a no-go. You can't RP around it and it effectively means that whoever's on the House of Nobles rules Stormwind. Whereas the Council is more of a community thing that gets its authority not from the king but from the people participating (which also legitimises the use of democracy in the organisation) the House of Nobles most likely would have its seat filled at the King's sole discretion and thus democracy wouldn't really work. If you're second only to the King and the King is absent then you're de facto king.

Also, since it would be the King, and not any supposed member of the house of nobles, who would have the power to assign seats, you'd either have to have someone OOCly deciding what the King does and does not approve of, or you'd open it to anybody who claims their character is a noble, essentially making the whole thing meaningless (and invalidating the council as well since you suggested the house have powers over the council) since everyone could walk up to you and claim that they're an important enough noble family to warrant entry to the house of nobles. And if not, then why not? What gives you the power to decide that your noble was granted a seat in the House of Noble (which, again, is run by the king) but that the king decided that this guy wasn't fit to sit in the House.

Focus on creating new initiatives. If you want politics á la house of nobles you could always just make a gathering or such specifically for noble families, assuming ofc there are enough active noble RPers on Defias to warrant a such gathering, where they can discuss and propose resolutions for their own issues and thus have no governing power beyond what is recognised by its own members.

Basically you should never under any circumstances assume the right to govern Stormwind, because essentially assuming the approval of the King to do a such thing way too easily amounts to powergaming. It's similar to the old days where the justification for royal authority essentially amounted to "God said so", so the only way you could oppose the king was to oppose God. In this case, the only way to ICly oppose the House of Nobles is to ICly oppose the King of Stormwind, because he's the head of the House of Nobles.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Hutchins on Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:08 am

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote: If your concept relies on authority granted by the king it's a no-go. You can't RP around it and it effectively means that whoever's on the House of Nobles rules Stormwind. Whereas the Council is more of a community thing that gets its authority not from the king but from the people participating (which also legitimises the use of democracy in the organisation) the House of Nobles most likely would have its seat filled at the King's sole discretion and thus democracy wouldn't really work. If you're second only to the King and the King is absent then you're de facto king.

Now the issue with this statement is that the Council itself would only have the authority it has if the King himself, or ironically in lore the House of Nobles itself, granted it, as the Council is not just a group of organisations deciding how they are best gonna help each other out.

The Council vote in the Ministers, those who have roles in the government of the Kingdom (hence work for the King) in various ways. But I'll pick on a most glaringly obvious one, the Minister of Justice.

The MoJ is expected to review, write and rewrite the laws of the KINGDOM. And anything they want to change needs to be passed through the Council and voted on. If you are saying the Council does not have its authority granted to it by the King to allow this to even happen, then the Council itself is saying "We have authority equal to the King" because they DO vote on this.


Ixirar/Kavalis wrote: Basically you should never under any circumstances assume the right to govern Stormwind, because essentially assuming the approval of the King to do a such thing way too easily amounts to powergaming.

The Council already pretty much does this as I have explained (partially at least) above. If your issue is truly regarding "Never assume the right to govern Stormwind" then you should also be arguing that the Council needs to be removed, or at least reformed drastically, as they are pretty much doing EXACTLY that. As another aside, the mere fact that the Council is held in the Keep, which is the home of the House of Wyrnn, it is to be presumed the Council has permission from the King to be there in the first place.

So, in short, if anyone wants to argue about "permission from the King" and "Governing Stormwind" being a no-no. Then please look at the Council and what it does for longer than five seconds and realise "If we have Ministers who control the Guards, the Laws, how Magic is run and all that. Then the players are governing how Stormwind works".

Just throwing out my two-cents here while I have a free moment at work.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:31 am

Maelmoor wrote:While the wording is better now this would still mean HoN would have to assume what the King would reject or accept, since he is sitting in the HoN and has the final say. When a Minister or the Council takes a decision they can be blamed for it, it can be discussed and argued in a more free way. What if HoN disagrees on what the assumption of the King would be?

were not RPing the king as present, my wording of "House of Noble members are under oath (you have to be to even be allowed to take your seat) which leaves them open to Law's question if they begin to not play nice, Oath-breaking is a law and Treason is also a consideration if someone really oversteps there line.. the House of Nobles is far from unanswerable to, if a group flocked in with a case presented showing signs of corruption, then it is fully possible to try and take action in law against House of Noble members. this is a reality of working under oath" already covers the reality it is not untouchable by law, also I COULD argue that without them there, you guys are only touchable by the same means the HoN's would be , LAW, there not allowed to break the law, which is written by the Minister of Justice, a role on the council.

i could argue that a number of choices made in the Council are not really in the councils area to say without the kings approval, we all know we do not use his name to push it forward, but we change laws non the less, we have Ministers who work on his behalf (they ARE government) and there is not way of saying that the Council dos not play government, as hutch pointed out, it runs Guards, magic sanctioning, law ect, it ALREADY governs like it was working for the king now, that is a reality that you have to admit is already there, plays to power-gaming issues like ANY rp that has power influence in the same manner, thats not an issue with the RP, thats an issue with a player, it will happen in the council and every other RP that has players with IC stations above others

Ixirar wrote:Focus on creating new initiatives. If you want politics á la house of nobles you could always just make a gathering or such specifically for noble families, assuming ofc there are enough active noble RPers on Defias to warrant a such gathering, where they can discuss and propose resolutions for their own issues and thus have no governing power beyond what is recognized by its own members.

the problem with this approach is it is after everything, a false interpretation of the lore we are presented with, we would not be RPing the house of nobles as that is not what it is.. im sorry for being a sucker for following the lore and trying to tie it together, but i dont like to make something that is not true to what it is lorewise, sure its my interpretation because in lore the Council IS called the house of nobles and non who is not a noble is allowed a seat, this is what the HoN does, it is a government body.

Maelmoor wrote:This is not true, a Minister can work on his own and do plans and set them in motion, only when there is something major, such as law changes it needs to be voted about (which makes sense I think), then it is voted about by the Council, not Ministers.

well i have seen things voted that to be honest , was not major changes, my sanction was not a change of law by trafalar and lets face facts, you guys made a vote on it and it was within his duty's to be allowed to do, you guys usurped him on it all the same, the fact is.. Ministerys are government controlled,

and on a flip side, lets say someone has a problem with an action taken by a Minister, how do you challenge it right now? they talk to the same people who agreed with it, you must see an issue there as well

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:26 am

Hutchins wrote:
Ixirar/Kavalis wrote: If your concept relies on authority granted by the king it's a no-go. You can't RP around it and it effectively means that whoever's on the House of Nobles rules Stormwind. Whereas the Council is more of a community thing that gets its authority not from the king but from the people participating (which also legitimises the use of democracy in the organisation) the House of Nobles most likely would have its seat filled at the King's sole discretion and thus democracy wouldn't really work. If you're second only to the King and the King is absent then you're de facto king.

Now the issue with this statement is that the Council itself would only have the authority it has if the King himself, or ironically in lore the House of Nobles itself,  granted it, as the Council is not just a group of organisations deciding how they are best gonna help each other out.

The Council vote in the Ministers, those who have roles in the government of the Kingdom (hence work for the King) in various ways. But I'll pick on a most glaringly obvious one, the Minister of Justice.

The MoJ is expected to review, write and rewrite the laws of the KINGDOM. And anything they want to change needs to be passed through the Council and voted on. If you are saying the Council does not have its authority granted to it by the King to allow this to even happen, then the Council itself is saying "We have authority equal to the King" because they DO vote on this.


Ixirar/Kavalis wrote: Basically you should never under any circumstances assume the right to govern Stormwind, because essentially assuming the approval of the King to do a such thing way too easily amounts to powergaming.

The Council already pretty much does this as I have explained (partially at least) above. If your issue is truly regarding "Never assume the right to govern Stormwind" then you should also be arguing that the Council needs to be removed, or at least reformed drastically, as they are pretty much doing EXACTLY that. As another aside, the mere fact that the Council is held in the Keep, which is the home of the House of Wyrnn, it is to be presumed the Council has permission from the King to be there in the first place.

So, in short, if anyone wants to argue about "permission from the King" and "Governing Stormwind" being a no-no. Then please look at the Council and what it does for longer than five seconds and realise "If we have Ministers who control the Guards, the Laws, how Magic is run and all that. Then the players are governing how Stormwind works".

Just throwing out my two-cents here while I have a free moment at work.

Except the council doesn't do this. The council does not have governing powers beyond the organisations that participate in the council. If the council decides that it's now illegal to drink before 4PM, this is not gonna affect the kingdom, it's only going to affect the guilds that take part in the council. It's like a union of guilds basically. This was the case last time I interacted with the council at the very least and I have in the past argued against the council when this was the case, as will I in the future if it becomes the case again.

I believe I've been one of the loudest critics of the council on this forum when it's assumed too much power in the past so I'd say at least over the past few years my stance on this has been largely consistent.

And yeah if the minister of justice thinks their laws are effective for people that aren't part of the council project then they're delusional and assuming too much power in which case stop doing that minister of justice. As far as I was aware though, when it was reformed to take away voting rights from ministers and instead put the democratic power in the hands of guild representives, that the concept of the council became, as I said before, a union of guilds discussing common rules for members of that union as opposed to a governing body for the Kingdom of Stormwind (which, again, I've always been a vocal critic of)

the problem with this approach is it is after everything, a false interpretation of the lore we are presented with, we would not be RPing the house of nobles as that is not what it is.. im sorry for being a sucker for following the lore and trying to tie it together, but i dont like to make something that is not true to what it is lorewise, sure its my interpretation because in lore the Council IS called the house of nobles and non who is not a noble is allowed a seat, this is what the HoN does, it is a government body.

You don't understand what I'm telling you. I'm saying don't RP a governing body of Stormwind. The only place you could get the authority for that from is the King and if you claim the King granted you the right to govern Stormwind then you're powergaming anybody who RPs in Stormwind as you're claiming the authority to govern their RP. I'm telling you, instead of RPing the House of Nobles, make your own thing. A political platform for nobles to come together and discuss their own problems separately from the House of Nobles, which no player should claim to be a part of because the very act of being in the house of nobles grants you authority over the Kingdom. I'm not interpreting any lore and I'm not suggesting you do. I'm suggesting you leave the lore organisation of the House of Nobles alone and make your own thing that isn't established in the lore. This way you're playing on an even playing field and the members of your organisation can make it a goal to gather enough influence that people allow you the authority to set the rules ICly, rather than just OOCly saying "My char is important now and you guys can't do anything about it ICly because it's the King that says I'm your boss".


and yes in the end if I'm mistaken and the council does assume the King's authority then that's stupid too and they should stop that. But I was untill now under the impression that the council moved away from that approach 2 years ago. Maelmoor please do confirm this.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Maelmoor on Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:13 am

[quote="Ixirar/Kavalis"][quote="Hutchins"]
Ixirar/Kavalis wrote: and yes in the end if I'm mistaken and the council does assume the King's authority then that's stupid too and they should stop that. But I was untill now under the impression that the council moved away from that approach 2 years ago. Maelmoor please do confirm this.

The Council has gone through much change during it's 10+ life time, to the better I want to believe (still room for improvement ofc), I could look up the date but about 3 years ago there was a Council reform where the concept changed in the terms that now the Council is made out of orders/organizations of Stormwind, this wasn't always the case.

But the very first concept of the whole Council was actually made to be something on it's own and not related to any "lore authority", hence we have this Minister set-up and all that. It gives people an opportunity to enjoy politcal RP as well as giving frameworks such as the laws without having to involve things like the King, which would be problematic.

I do like the idea about creating something different for the Nobles, that would make it easier to work and you could still be able to enjoy such RP.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:40 am

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:Except the council doesn't do this. The council does not have governing powers beyond the organisations that participate in the council. If the council decides that it's now illegal to drink before 4PM, this is not gonna affect the kingdom, it's only going to affect the guilds that take part in the council. It's like a union of guilds basically. This was the case last time I interacted with the council at the very least and I have in the past argued against the council when this was the case, as will I in the future if it becomes the case again.

this is true, and in effect, this dos not hold power over anyone who is not involved with it (players have right to what they RP in at the end of it all) .. but it does not change within the council you have people doing jobs that are flatly speaking, Kings decree, Minister of Justice is the most obvious one but all of them are the same in that manner, they HAVE that IC power, and just because you don't say it don't mean it was not granted by kings law, it cant be in any other way implemented, all you have managed to achieve is avoiding using his name for a worry, buy you are STILL rping that

do i think this idea is a great way to force the hand of the council = no.. i dont want any of the HoN to be given some extra weight to positions where they are allowed to act out of accordance of law or claim to power, this is a RP concept that DOS require the council and HoN to be a Co- Operative rather than fight against another, grants a different platform for politics, the council room always becomes a mess when politics and long debates start to be presented as the event really dos not accommodate for long debates, this platform as i have seen can deal with longer interactions on one subject.

the only way you can argue dropping all the subject of Government and try and avoid it is = get rid of all the ministers as they are playing government too and claiming to the same powers, i have RPed for 18 years of my life, i can tell you now that "powergaming" shows up the second you offer anyone a position that is stationed higher than the average, its not an RP issue its a player issue, if a player is going to try and power game then he will where he can, it dont matter if you add a king or anything else to the matter.

try to argue the ministers are anything less than "elected officials" with powers granted by the king without it being disputed, its not questionable , because they are as they are presented. by denying any one else the ability to present a case of "power" in a RP scents, it becomes hypocritical debate as long as the council still attires to been able to issue general decree, trial people in law, give guards rights to arrest and so forth. the irony of the debate on it though is the council will STILL have that if this came into effect, the HoN has no say in HOW the laws are worded, dos not issue out how the ministers are meant to act or take any charge in the ministry actions. MORE so in the current state of things, I have implemented the king OOCly as a reason to WHY we must draw our conclusions from things in a logical manner, in other words its there to simply prevent "we dont like you" because that is not an answer you would like to have presented to your king.. its OOC, but its there because its as it would be.

i raise the topic of the Senate, that as of so far not had an issue with the fact that there Chairman is meant to record and present there topic to the three hammers, i have yet to see that become an issue of power play being implemented just because they have the council of three hammers loosely attired to there event, which proves fully this can be done without that problem becoming an issue if players do not make it so, to put my case more clearly, this is RP, saying "no you cant" in RP is stupid, people will RP with you or not, your free to RP as you want, we can make some clear OOC lines because it helps direct the RP in a way we want it to, but the only way of achieving this "no power play" BS is to remove all powers from everyone and no one is anything more than a civilian or adventurer because that is all that is left then

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:15 am

on the point of over ruling the House of Nobles, yes, i understand OOCly the idea of "well if the king is the top of house then well you guys dont answer to anyone because hes still not playable"

the house of nobles is answerable to law like everyone else who chose to RP to SW laws, OOCly i do not think it could be considered treason to question the house of Nobles or even accuse the table or its members of corruption (i think King V W would agree to getting rid of corrupted Nobles from his house too)

if anything, it means that the house of nobles members are SO much closer to being accused of treason or oath breaking them selves due to the position, this is something to take into consideration

second over, i DO think this offers a richer RP opportunity to some positions on the council which i do feel have little other than a title to claim, i could see the Minister of Trade being someone able to take a regular involvement and have some offered RP opportunity because of the HoN, i know from the words of previous Minister of Trade, it was not a rich RP position and offered very little say on the table other than looking like you are meant to be doing something (open for debate with the next MoT really but it would be an offer of some RP generated by the house which i suspect will feed some life into the Minister of Trade position)

final point i will bring up is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Basic function of the Stormwind Council is to act as the political body of Stormwind, serving King Varian Wrynn and the population of the Stormwind Kingdom to its fullest. The simplest way to describe the SW Council, or compare it to anything, would be a medieval house of nobles, which take decisions and resolve problems/crises/issues, alongside with their King or in his name and will, with the exception for the fact that the members of the SW council are not gluttonous nobles who only think for themselves. There have been many rumours about corruption within the ranks, but so far none of the people associated with the Council has admitted OOCly or seen any IC proof of such a rumour, which also makes the Council quite a reliable organization within Stormwind for its devotion to what they do.

The Stormwind Council also organizes community events associated with the duties and work they do, alongside with the fact they resolve issues between different parties of Role Players within the community, both in character and out of character. Idea is for the Council to be something like a regulatory body or a corner stone within the SW community, where people with issues will have someone to go to with the clear idea that they will help to resolve them.

The system with which decisions is taken is a standard majority vote one, the Chairlady/man gives the chance for the ministers to vote on the issue brought forth and its resolution, and the ministers vote over the solution backing up their decision with arguments or abstaining from the vote.

Functions go as following: Ministry of Defence, Internal Affairs, Foreign Affairs, Justice, Magic, and Trade.


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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:38 am

Azapha you don't understand man. The Council does not have legislative powers, nor does it claim to have, over anybody that isn't a member of one of the guilds in it, or choose willingly to comply with its rule. It does not claim to govern Stormwind. It does not claim the King's authority. The Minister of Justice of the Stormwind Council is responsible for formulating the ruleset that is to be follower by members of council and the guilds/organisations that observe its authority. It's not a council appointed by the House of Nobles, nor is it a council appointed by the king. It's a gathering of people and organisations going together to say "Let's form a union that has nothing to do with the king".

Also your notion that society lorewise is stacked against those in power is ridiculous, that's not how nobility works.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Cid on Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:44 am

Far as I can see, there is a section worth reading:
Azapha wrote:This is the First draft of rules I have created, I expect them to be subject to change and improvement before being implemented

In other words, nothing is set in stone yet. However, there have been issues regarding the Council and I agree with Azapha that change is needed. Maelmoor comes with constructive points regarding some of the ideas Azapha brings up.

Ixirar mentions one bit here that I particularly like:
Ixirar wrote:The only place you could get the authority for that from is the King and if you claim the King granted you the right to govern Stormwind then you're powergaming anybody who RPs in Stormwind as you're claiming the authority to govern their RP. I'm telling you, instead of RPing the House of Nobles, make your own thing. A political platform for nobles to come together and discuss their own problems separately from the House of Nobles, which no player should claim to be a part of because the very act of being in the house of nobles grants you authority over the Kingdom.

While some may call me a hypocrite for pointing this bit out, considering my part in the Senate, let me remind people that Senate more or less help the Council of Three Hammers to govern, rather than being a ruling body. Decisions are acted out upon by the community if they agree to it, rather than having the Senate as rulers over something they are not. But since this be about the Stormwind Council, I'll try stick to the topic.

I actually told Azapha almost the very same thing regarding the HoN, that there should not be any players part of it. It is as you state a governing body under King Varian Wrynn, and thus should be left alone. Ixirar brings up a good point regarding the separate thing from HoN, a small noble council or something that gather to discuss things.

I would even go as far as to suggest that it works with the Council in such manner that the current 'post-Council meeting' could be remade into one such gathering. The ministers could report in to the nobles about the topics, talk about solutions to things if not the councilmeeting itself had come up with any answers to potential questions and so on. This be just a draft of an idea hiding in the back of my head, but it could be something worth pondering about.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:06 am

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:The Council does not have legislative powers, nor does it claim to have

changing law IS legislative power, thats changing the highest form of legislation. its LAW,

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote: Also your notion that society lorewise is stacked against those in power is ridiculous, that's not how nobility works.

in stormwind, yes it is. the house of nobles is not filled with common folk, its full of Nobility who all have land ownership/ businesses profitable towards both them selves and kingdom. its how older aristocracy was, where a king is upheld first by his Nobility that own the lands he rules and works down to elected officials after, because the king is nothing if non who owns the land he rules agrees with him, this is how older IRL systems was and currently it suggests in the lore we have available that it IS like that.. if all your land owners in the nobility stand against something it IS reality they have power in acting on it

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by siegmund on Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:09 am

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:As far as I was aware though, when it was reformed to take away voting rights from ministers and instead put the democratic power in the hands of guild representives, that the concept of the council became, as I said before, a union of guilds discussing common rules for members of that union as opposed to a governing body for the Kingdom of Stormwind (which, again, I've always been a vocal critic of)

Well let me explain least from my point of view on this "reform" that happened just to enlighten for anyone not too knowable on this.

In short at the time I led a explorer/adventure themed guild and was introduced to a idea by some people wanting for the council to change. The idea was pretty much make the council just a union of guilds in the city no strings attached, or something along those lines. Quite a few guilds and people were up for the idea far as i can remember but of course not everyone wanted changes to the council. Some pushing back and forth happened and go figure it ended up in middle ground.

Guild orders got representatives and those were able to vote on all the things while ministers would be still there, doing their thing of minister things but technically not hold any big power or at least that was the idea. Things still ended up going up and down over time. The middleground didn't really make a lot of sense and people tried to figure out how it would work.

Now I kinda ended up joining the seasions as a representative of the guild/order I was running at the time but it ended up being a load of politics and law things not all of it but mosty and then the ongoing discussion of where to vote in public or not, why are we even voting on laws as guilds... This is wierd.. Wait we're voting on whenever or not kidnapping is illegal? Oh, we're voting becouse it's not written in the "law book" well that makes much more sense. Oh great let's make a aftercouncil and votes will happen there, what can go wrong? But i'm getting ahead of myself. I ended up getting bored with the political RP and the voting ment waiting for the aftercouncil which after some long councils themselves got tiresome. Not that nothing good was brought with guild representatives, but for similar reasons like for me or other kind of reasons it ended up falling a bit short. Not that it didn't bring some improvements but again mainly depended on what certain people themselves did with the new version of the council like in the past.

Forgot to add: The lines between the council having power/king stuff or not got blurry all about but changing laws and similar things still have been a big thing of the council, and i'm sure I heard the king mentioned here and there even though officially it's not kinda, maybe.. got anything to do with the king/house of nobles /ruling stuff. But the laws pretty much are being acted out as the usual stormwing laws not some inter guild laws.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Hutchins on Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:17 am

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:Azapha you don't understand man. The Council does not have legislative powers, nor does it claim to have, over anybody that isn't a member of one of the guilds in it, or choose willingly to comply with its rule. It does not claim to govern Stormwind. It does not claim the King's authority. The Minister of Justice of the Stormwind Council is responsible for formulating the ruleset that is to be follower by members of council and the guilds/organisations that observe its authority. It's not a council appointed by the House of Nobles, nor is it a council appointed by the king. It's a gathering of people and organisations going together to say "Let's form a union that has nothing to do with the king".

Also your notion that society lorewise is stacked against those in power is ridiculous, that's not how nobility works.

When was the last time you were actually AT the Council to see what it does? Because all that is evident in what you are saying is that YOU lack any understanding of how the Council works.

Yes, it DOES have legislative power and no, it isn't JUST for the guilds that are part of the Council.

The Council have voted who gets "guard right" in the city, which is to say who acts in addition to the Stormwind Guard themselves. This requires authority given by the King.

The Council have voted in new laws and have voted to change current laws, this does not just effect the guilds that are part of the Council as ALL of Stormwind are expected to follow these laws and in fact the entire Kingdom. This requires authority given by the King.

Let's go further into this -

Minister of Foreign Affairs - Representing the Kingdom of Stormwind to the other Nations of the Alliance and promoting good relations between them. This is on behalf of the King, not on behalf of the guilds that are part of the Council because it's for the KINGDOM.

Minister of Trade - This isn't JUST the trade that happens in Stormwind, it's the imports and exports of the city as a whole and is there to govern the economic well-being of the Kingdom of Stormwind. Which would require authority from the King.

Minister of Internal Affairs - Name might make you think this is about guilds right? Well, you're wrong. It's about Stormwind and the Education, Medical welfare and Religious well-being of the citizens of Stormwind and the Kingdom. Which again would require the authority of the King as you're looking after his Kingdom.

And the fact the Councillors get to vote WHO becomes these Ministers? And hell, they'd get to vote on what they have DONE if it turns out "Hey we don't think that's a good idea" or "Actually we don't like the sound of that"? To see if it actually happens or not? Guess what baby, it requires Authority given to the Council by His Royal Highness King Wyrnn.

Once more with feeling guys, if the Council aren't supposed to have legislative powers or be working with the King then MAN OH MAN HAS THE SYSTEM GOT FOOFED. Because hey, they're doing just that. Again if your argument against the idea for the House of Nobles revolves purely around relating it to the King being the problem, then that problem is already quite deeply entrenched in the Council as it currently stands.

Now I'm going to sound aggressive, like a bit of a dick(I am one) and genuinely not nice here but are you truly clueless to what is happening within the Council or are you being wilfully ignorant at this point? Because it's getting hard to tell.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:28 am

siegmund wrote:Forgot to add: The lines between the council having power/king stuff or not got blurry all about but changing laws and similar things still have been a big thing of the council, and i'm sure I heard the king mentioned here and there even though officially it's not kinda, maybe.. got anything to do with the king/house of nobles /ruling stuff. But the laws pretty much are being acted out as the usual stormwing laws not some inter guild laws.

this is my point, we now have a council that HAS government power.. it does not use the kings name, but in every other way it acts like it holds that level of power.. now the House of Nobles idea when we bring this up to light suddenly breaks this discussion into a case of IF we can enact all of these and we have been happy to have the council calling laws (changing Legislation), issuing Decrees (sanctions is a decree as its an allowance above normal laws) and RPing trialing people under the laws they have made, is the council? not already there? challenging your case doing ALL of these things now that your concerns are about?

and these laws are written as KINGDOM LAWS, they go beyond the council in how they work. they cover stormwind, all all the surrounding lands

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by siegmund on Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:53 am

I liked the time when guard guilds were guard guilds and didn't really take shit from the council but did work with it to make RP. Nowadays since guard guilds are pretty much dead guards ended up being mainly non guard guilds who want these guard rights that the council gives out. So the player written laws and everything about carrying them out is said as how the council says it goes. Any new guard wanting guild kinda would be just pointed to the council "oh you have to get guard rights". But of course not that i'd make sense for everyone and their grandma being a guard out of the blue here now, but i think people get the point.

Also yes the council has problems, but I think people are overthinking it. I'm pretty sure this House of Nobles idea would just make more complications and just give more and more lists of rules and whatever other crap. Don't really mind people who like politics and all that boring law things I mean even when I Rped in SW regiment it was pointless to complicate things and force people to hear Mc'donalds order list for hours in a council becouse someone is offended by a word. Yes sir i'll have a 4.1 along with a side of everyone is standing in a square silently staring into a table while wondering if anyone has anything actually important to say.

Back to the topic though, I just prefer the route of going more the guild union idea. Any guild could join and any person even non guilded could attend and contribute. You could even make a "Treasury" and list up people to manage it if you already wanted some politics into it or any similar ideas like a military council, support among cities (foregin stuff, whatever). Let the focus be the people, the things that happen/ed or will happen, the problems the community faces. It'd just be better imo with such a small community and easier to explain to newer people and for them to join up or least hear what is happening on the server.

But that's just my opinion. Also isn't it pointless getting into back and forth discussion on how the council is operating right now? Also good god wall of texts, I know i'm doing them too but this is a bit too much.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Maelmoor on Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:59 am

Azapha wrote:
siegmund wrote:Forgot to add: The lines between the council having power/king stuff or not got blurry all about but changing laws and similar things still have been a big thing of the council, and i'm sure I heard the king mentioned here and there even though officially it's not kinda, maybe.. got anything to do with the king/house of nobles /ruling stuff. But the laws pretty much are being acted out as the usual stormwing laws not some inter guild laws.

this is my point, we now have a council that HAS government power.. it does not use the kings name, but in every other way it acts like it holds that level of power.. now the House of Nobles idea when we bring this up to light suddenly breaks this discussion into a case of IF we can enact all of these and we have been happy to have the council calling laws (changing Legislation), issuing Decrees (sanctions is a decree as its an allowance above normal laws) and RPing trialing people under the laws they have made, is the council? not already there? challenging your case doing ALL of these things now that your concerns are about?

and these laws are written as KINGDOM LAWS, they go beyond the council in how they work. they cover stormwind, all all the surrounding lands

I doubt this discussion will move your idea with a gathering for nobles forward, as people will have different opinions about this. In the end it's about finding a fair balance, it's like security, you could make the most secure system in the world but none could use it, rather you need to find the balance between security and being user-friendly. One could argue that our characters and guilds etc are breaking the lore as well if you take it to the extreme but then again you wouldn't be able to do any RP, thus finding a balance is the key.

I still agree with those who suggested making it into something own is a good way forward, after all what you are after is a fun and rewarding RP scene for nobles, involving political elements. By making it something separate you have a blank canvas to form something appealing and fun, cause that must be the main point, not the specific name, right?

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:04 pm

Azapha wrote:
siegmund wrote:Forgot to add: The lines between the council having power/king stuff or not got blurry all about but changing laws and similar things still have been a big thing of the council, and i'm sure I heard the king mentioned here and there even though officially it's not kinda, maybe.. got anything to do with the king/house of nobles /ruling stuff. But the laws pretty much are being acted out as the usual stormwing laws not some inter guild laws.

this is my point, we now have a council that HAS government power.. it does not use the kings name, but in every other way it acts like it holds that level of power.. now the House of Nobles idea when we bring this up to light suddenly breaks this discussion into a case of IF we can enact all of these and we have been happy to have the council calling laws (changing Legislation), issuing Decrees (sanctions is a decree as its an allowance above normal laws) and RPing trialing people under the laws they have made, is the council? not already there? challenging your case doing ALL of these things now that your concerns are about?

and these laws are written as KINGDOM LAWS, they go beyond the council in how they work. they cover stormwind, all all the surrounding lands

How many times do I have to repeat myself lol, if the council is still claiming king's authority then the council is retarded too and should change.

EDIT: Also, yes the minister system is a relic of the time when the council claimed to be appointed by the King to govern his kingdom for him. This was a stupid idea. It shouldn't have been done, and it was a huge step in the right direction when they moved all the power in the council over to the guild representives. The council then became "The will of the representives" rather than "The will of the king".

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:42 pm

siegmund wrote:Don't really mind people who like politics and all that boring law things I mean even when I Rped in SW regiment it was pointless to complicate things and force people to hear Mc'donalds order list for hours in a council becouse someone is offended by a word. Yes sir i'll have a 4.1 along with a side of everyone is standing in a square silently staring into a table while wondering if anyone has anything actually important to say.

well this is where i kinda put forward the point, i dont think the council it self suits political talk and debate that is likely to go beyond 5 mins in length, the event tries to make sure people have time to petition events, announcements and such, the House of Nobles as a stand now allows for a place of LONG debate which is not a hindrance to the event we RP, as were not pushing for quick answer and move on the very foundation of what we have began so far accommodates for this.

As for complex rules, if anything, its taking some away.. up until now Ministers have this vague thing where they may or may not need something voted in, Mael says major changes but its open for debate WHAT they are (law change might be easy to cover.. but iv seen things voted that in all respects, was fully within the Ministers duty's as written and should never of been voted in the first place or that may be debatable to require a vote? wheres that line?) my point being, we remove that and just have it so people can question an action that was considered wrong rather than telling people they need to have permission from everyone else before they start,

at no point did i expect the HoNs main objective to be purely to focus its intent on "HOW" the Council works, it wont walk in and tell them they have it wrong and this is how it should be.. most of its debates are aimed around land, ownership, tax, currency trade and "internal" workings of the city, but as long as the Council claims to what it dos now, it is everything you claim to fear mael.. its unquestionable and dos not answer to no one, sure you guys can be arrested and such, but you are making the very laws you expect to be judged by, that in it self is defeating unless there is an overseer, because it means the council dos indeed, both enact AND enforce the rules of the land with non who can overrule or over throw it .. it is currently the most unanswerable force in stormwind.

i was not making this idea as a pitch to tell you that you CANT RP ministers and have characters who have authority (ooc we all accept that anyone has the right to walk away from RP they dont want to, you cant force someone OOCly to join your RP or accept consequence ).. but i am saying that if you do, then the system i see is just madness and has enough room for power play that if anything this idea i present counters that off by simply giving you something to BE answerable..

now obviously OOCly i have no desire to see the HoN become the councils bully, i would love to see the idea (however it turns out to move to) if anything add some RP possibility between the two, we can pull away the kinda of debates that the council dos not handle well (nearly always law/ internal political debates) and the council can focus its efforts into being a gathering event for the public, which is what i kinda think it is intended to be, a hosted event for the public to announce events, talk public matters ect, focus its role on the people it is made to serve, the public! no one in the public care on the inner workings of how the the debate on how a law was edited came about, but the public would be able to hear the shorter answer of what HAS been done rather than having the debate opened in an open session and everyone has to hear it, i am 100% for not having these talks in the council room, unless its RP been done for a meaningful way that the public get a show out of it (because its intended to be heard publicly)

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:49 pm

Alright, let's say we establish a House of Nobles system to keep the Council in check. Then what happens when the Nobles start abusing their power? Then we'll need a Royal Family/Regent-Lord system to keep them in check. And when the Regent-Lord starts abusing his powers... Well, won't we need to elect a player king? And then when he grows cocky we need to elevate players into the positions of Godhood to keep the player-king in check.

Because organisations that get their power from NPC Authority can only be countered by higher NPC authority.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:57 pm

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:Alright, let's say we establish a House of Nobles system to keep the Council in check. Then what happens when the Nobles start abusing their power? Then we'll need a Royal Family/Regent-Lord system to keep them in check. And when the Regent-Lord starts abusing his powers... Well, won't we need to elect a player king? And then when he grows cocky we need to elevate players into the positions of Godhood to keep the player-king in check.

well first off OOCly we dont have a king RPer.. thats just dumb, the house of nobles NEEDS a debate to be brought TO them to be allowed to take ANY action, i think this cripples anyone who had the hopes of wreaking out xyz ministers plans considering you need every one in the room to agree with you.. power play OOCly is something we come across in the council and everything else with "stations" that go beyond, i have seen it around, it happens, its down to players to discuss issues like this out

Nobles abuse there power can be arrested and questioned under oath-breaking and/or Treason, i have pointed this out a number of times, so the HoN members (group or member) are accusable by the rules set out BY THE COUNCIL, which means they can be tried, lose titles/lands or in extreme cases, banishment or worse.. proving they are abusing there power is in it self an RP, it can happen, if they ARE abusing there position then this is a reality

as i said. we take on the logic the HoN members are accusable for failing at there duty's, we assume they would be trialed under law, and can be accused by anyone just like a civilian can accuse a man of murder


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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:59 pm

Which gives the Council jurisdiction to rule over the King's nobles? Nope. Sorry. That's absolutely a no-go.

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Azapha on Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:03 pm

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:Which gives the Council jurisdiction to rule over the King's nobles? Nope. Sorry. That's absolutely a no-go.

dos it? because unless im mistaken oath-breaking IS a crime, you swore an oath to be there .. and second over.. there is nothing saying a noble in the house of nobles is "immune to law"

Azapha

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Re: House of Nobles open discussion

Post by Sponsored content Today at 3:13 am


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