Loldodging?

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:05 pm

Vaell wrote:
Lexgrad wrote:
Vaell wrote:Skaraa, I don't know where you got your lore sources from, but they're wrong lol.

If someone role-plays an actual WoW warrior or hunter from the character creation screen, they can easily stand toe to toe with a DK. There's nothing that says otherwise. A warrior in WoW lore can go berserker, is super strong, can leap 20ft and cause the ground to tremble when he slams it.

No.
No offence dude, but you've continuously shown a bias toward DKs since you first started on the forum. I'd sooner ask a trial account player with 2 hours played time as a Goblin Shaman about WoW lore before coming to you.

Not at all, when I first started on the forums I never had a death knight. I would say my arguments regarding DKs are very balanced however, if you have any particular point you think is op pls say. Remember, disagreeing does not equal unbalanced. Hell I could justify being twice as powerful than I am, do not mistake either RPing the image of power with RPing as powerful.

Sorry if my post seems patronizing, just the only response to the asinine

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:16 pm

Adry wrote:
Lexgrad wrote:
Vaell wrote:Skaraa, I don't know where you got your lore sources from, but they're wrong lol.

If someone role-plays an actual WoW warrior or hunter from the character creation screen, they can easily stand toe to toe with a DK. There's nothing that says otherwise. A warrior in WoW lore can go berserker, is super strong, can leap 20ft and cause the ground to tremble when he slams it.

No.

So it's totally fine for a DK to use Paladin spells when portrayed by the master of lore that is yourself, but other classes aren't allowed to use their own spells? As long as you say that, your entire argument is entirely moot. You have succeeded in changing my mind of one thing at least. Previously I wasnt entirely sure you were stupid.

Yeah, cos you have ever RPed with Lex Razz.  But to restate your argument "I disagree with Lex so he is stupid".  Well I shall not qq over randoms.  Good day to you Sir.

FYI, best RPer you never played with.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Tobias Redeye on Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:26 pm

The thing is, anyone can put on an armour and get a sword and already be classified as a warrior/fighter. If your character has long long years of fighting experience behind them, then sure, they could probably last against a deathknight.

Not every warrior is a good fighter, however, EVERY deathknight is a killing machine. There's a reason why they ended up being raised as a deathknight rather than ending up as a mindless ghoul or a brain dead skeleton. As you might have noticed in the Acherus, those who were deemed unworthy, were immediatly slaughtered and used as a mindless ghoul.

Safe to say, those who perished and were found worthy to be raised as a deathknights were already excellent fighters in the past. Now think about the fact that they have been blessed with necromantic+shadow+blood powers AND the trait of -never- becoming exhausted.

Lorewise, death knights are OP. Not undefeatable but definetly overpowered.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Vaell on Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:48 pm

A warrior CAN be just as powerful (if not more so) than a DK. No lore source has said otherwise. That's my point. If you want to nitpick, the fact a DK is strolling around Stormwind just to be social makes a hell of a lot less sense to me.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:56 pm

Vaell wrote:The fact a DK is strolling around Stormwind just to be social makes a hell of a lot less sense to me.

Context is required. There are thousands of reasons a DK might be in the city, just as there are plenty that mages should be in Dalaran.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Iriel Silversong on Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:19 pm

I am going to say K. O to the ........... Oh You!?

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Skaraa on Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:58 pm

Vaell wrote:A warrior CAN be just as powerful (if not more so) than a DK. No lore source has said otherwise. That's my point. If you want to nitpick, the fact a DK is strolling around Stormwind just to be social makes a hell of a lot less sense to me.

The point about DKs, that myself and other people have made, are not that they are always more powerful than any other class. The point we are making is that by being undead, that gives them a host of advantages to any living creature which makes them overpowered. As it was put by Furenia "Not every warrior is a good fighter, however, EVERY deathknight is a killing machine." - They are, by simply being a DK, powerful. A warrior isn't powerful because he puts on armour and picks up a sword, but a DK is powerful -because- he is a DK. The class, the concept, is overpowered. That is all we are saying.

I wouldn't consider this to be bias -towards- DKs as you claimed Lexgrad as being. Being overpowered isn't a good thing, but when you examine the lore of Death Knights it is very stark that they are a considerably powerful class, not on the merits of the experience of the characters, but on just being risen and trained as a Death Knight. I would argue that, because of this, DK roleplayers need to be careful to not lose themselves in this power. It is easy to shrug off damage as a DK and be perfectly justified. This is why, as said, I avoid inter-player conflict on my Death Knight, because being a DK makes it less threatening and therefore less fun.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Adry on Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:10 pm

Lexgrad wrote:FYI, best RPer you never played with.

Are you so sure about that?

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Feral / Blackfall on Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:27 pm

I agree with everything Skaraa has said. Also, the initial few posts answered the question beautifully--common sense is always king, along with a good dose of consideration toward your fellow roleplayers.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Demurral on Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:32 am

In all honesty.. I've never had a problem with fighting Death Knights. Nearly every single class has -something- going for them that allows them to control or damage undead. Chain Undead, Turn Undead, etc, etc.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Jack Noodlemeister on Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:43 am

If you know how to deal with them, a class can be easy to medium to deal with. For example, you wanna kill a Death Knight? The Light, headshots and fire (Some may be easier said than done).

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Amaryl on Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:47 am

Incoming discussion about saronite.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Helmut on Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:10 am

Don't worry. We brought saronite penetrating bullets and have been using them for years in RP. Playing "you cant hurt me because I have magic armor, na na na na" is just shitty. If one is to do so then you simply say "well my magic bullets break your magic armor because magic"!

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Jack Noodlemeister on Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:16 am

Yep. I approve of this.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Adry on Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:21 am

Or just don't play with scrubs who say their magic armour makes them invincible.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by siegmund on Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:41 am

Amaryl wrote:Incoming discussion about saronite.

A- You know nevermind. But no, saronite armor ain't invincible super best mega magic armor.

Edit: And yes undead have their perks, but also their downsides, undead is also a wide term too, goind from spirits to "what the fat thing is that?"

But eh really trying to get all facts into what is better usually doesn't work too much in RP since confession... Not always but sometimes it can come down to a ooc discussion what can beat something or what is wrong/right mid RP. That's just boring.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Jack Noodlemeister on Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:06 am

siegmund wrote:
Amaryl wrote:Incoming discussion about saronite.

A- You know nevermind. But no, saronite armor ain't invincible super best mega magic armor.

Edit: And yes undead have their perks, but also their downsides, undead is also a wide term too, goind from spirits to "what the fat thing is that?"

But eh really trying to get all facts into what is better usually doesn't work too much in RP since confession... Not always but sometimes it can come down to a ooc discussion what can beat something or what is wrong/right mid RP. That's just boring.

Yep, undead do have downsides. To prevent further rotting and therefore limbs falling off, the DK has to be really really dry so no decay can occur. Because of this, DK + fire = Dead DK.


Last edited by Jack Noodlemeister on Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:07 am

Jack Noodlemeister wrote:
siegmund wrote:
Amaryl wrote:Incoming discussion about saronite.

A- You know nevermind. But no, saronite armor ain't invincible super best mega magic armor.

Edit: And yes undead have their perks, but also their downsides, undead is also a wide term too, goind from spirits to "what the fat thing is that?"

But eh really trying to get all facts into what is better usually doesn't work too much in RP since confession... Not always but sometimes it can come down to a ooc discussion what can beat something or what is wrong/right mid RP. That's just boring.

Yep, undead do have downsides. To prevent further rotting and therefore limbs falling off, the DK has to be really really dry so no decay can occur. Because of this, DK + fire = Dead DK.

One of the three specs of a death knight is literally called FROST. Where'd you get that idea from? They're preserved through magic lmfao.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Jack Noodlemeister on Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:10 am

I got it from a fair number of DK Roleplaying guides.

On a side note, your avatar quite frankly scares me. :3

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:13 am

Cite your sources. A DK doesn't decay if they get wet. Otherwise, they couldn't stay in zones with rain, nor in tropical areas or anywhere with coastlines because the humidity in the air would fuck them over.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Jack Noodlemeister on Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:34 am

Book

An ingame book saying that DK's rot.

Spoiler:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Sorry about the spoiler, I just had to.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Skaraa on Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:27 pm

Jack Noodlemeister wrote:Book

An ingame book saying that DK's rot.

Spoiler:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Sorry about the spoiler, I just had to.

I think it is far more reasonable to presume that necromantic magic prevents rotting (for Forsaken as well as DKs), for a few reasons:

1. If we are going to say that decomposition is occurring naturally, then we lead into various other biological problems with reanimation: for instance how is the DK/Forsaken moving without functioning cells and a functional nervous system? - If a DK/Forsaken can naturally decompose, why is everything else not also realistic?

2. How is it that the internal body of the Death Knight, the gastrointestinal tract in particular, has not rotted away? - We know that it hasn't because the Scourge, according to lore (which I believe may have been put forward during an Ask the Devs session), forced DKs to eat grubs, rotting flesh, and various other nasty things. The first thing to start being broken down are these areas of the body with a naturally occurring bacterial biota; this is why bodies start to inflate with gas and bloat as the internal decomposition takes place. These areas are also naturally quite damp and well supplied with water through mucus membranes. It seems to me that if decomposition occurs normally in DKs/Forsaken that they should at least suffer a significant amount of internal rotting.

3. Leading on from this, we would have the problem of maggots and other insects which would get into the body and start to actively devour dead flesh. Whether the body is magically moving around or not is irrelevant; moving around doesn't stop you from being parasitised by insects in real life (Glossina flies/ticks). Why would the act of moving prevent it for an undead?

4. Presence of water is a significant factor in decomposition, but it is not the only one. Short of removing all water from the body of a DK/Forsaken (which has other serious problems), you're not going to perfectly control that variable anyway. Also, looking at a DKs abilities we have lots on emphasis on Frost (100% water) and Blood (92% by volume of plasma is water) that's a lot of unnecessary water for a being that needs to keep itself dry.


All of these points make it very difficult for me to consider Undead in the World of Warcraft (or any setting) as undergoing natural decomposition of any kind. Undead are magical, they have to be in order to make any sense, but picking and choosing which bits are magical and which bits are not (seemingly arbitrarily), to me, make it very hard to suspend belief. You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't say small parts of decomposition occur realistically but nothing else does.

As for the book, okay, it is a lore source and I will accept it until it is proven otherwise. But it seems very... easter egg-y... humorous... not serious to a reader. But fine, I'll take the book. The issues that arise are equally very interesting, however. I just think life is simpler, cleaner, and easier if we presume that decomposition isn't taking place. It raises far more questions than it answers.

I'm very interested to see the responses to this. I stress that I am talking about Undead in general, not just Death Knights. Smile

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Jack Noodlemeister on Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:47 pm

Good point now that I think about it. This lore contradicts itself a lot.

I think a good compromise would be that not every raising was perfect, and some rot whereas others do not.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by nope on Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:52 pm

Tbf on #1, I think it's supposed to be handwaved by necromancy making them able to move around and shit. Idk, that's what I went with otherwise yeah, those skeletons are gonna be falling on their ass with nothing at the hinge joints to keep them together.

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Re: Loldodging?

Post by Demurral on Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:41 pm

In all honesty, I have always seen Death Knights as being animated by a combination of all three aspects -
Frost, to keep sections of the body cold to reduce bacteria and the rotting process.
Blood, to keep flow of blood moving around the body to cause animation to occur - ie, moving around your arms, legs, etc.
Unholy, to control the insects and such wee beasties inside the body, and direct them towards others, and to help with the general reanimation process - magic literally manipulating bones, muscle and tendons, or else replacing those things as magical constructs, in a sense.

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Re: Loldodging?

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