Tanarisi Humans Discussion

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Do you agree that the concept of Tanarisi culture is widely regarded on the server?

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Total Votes : 76

Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Adry on Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:41 pm

People requested this be made its own topic, so here it is. I'd like to start by explaining my own views.

In my mind, there are two necessities in defining server lore. It must be:
  • Compliant with Blizzard lore
  • Recognised as a consensus
I'm sure you can all agree that this is an entirely reasonable approach. For the former point, in case you haven't already I recommend reading this and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. As for the latter, that is why there is a poll on this thread. But I do ask that before voting, you read the remainder of my post. And now for the main event:

Why I think Tanarisi Humans should not exist

Culture

One of the reasons people wish to play Tanarisi Humans is to enjoy their unique player-made culture, but we need to understand what culture is in the Warcraft universe before we can add to it. Warcraft is a fantasy setting, and as such its universe runs on a completely different set of rules. The Light, the Shadow, Arcane magic, Nature magic, etc, these are all fantastical fabrications which add to the depth of the setting. These concepts may seem complicated, but in reality they are more of an effort to simplify an explanation of the universe. The universe we live in ourselves is unquantifiable and unknown, with complex scientific theories and analyses of why things do what they do. Fantasy settings offer much simpler explanations inspired by olden-day mythology. Magic, gods (I am NOT suggesting that there are no gods in our universe! On the contrary, I'd really like to believe there is, but I can't decide which religion best explains it), and other simplifications such as the elements. If any of you have read any of the Discworld novels, I can thoroughly recommend the following video.



It is long, but well worth the watch. For those who have no intention of watching, allow me to briefly summarise; the Discworld universe is said to "just work". In the Discworld universe, the most simple explanation is the correct one. If someone was to say "Close the window, you're letting the cold in" in our world, they would be incorrect. In the Discworld, this statement is instead correct. Additionally the world is a flat disc so nobody can fall off, and it's sat atop some elephants because they can carry heavy things, and they're on top of a turtle because turtles can swim. It is simple, and in its incredibly simple way it makes sense. We can apply similar ideals to any fantasy setting. Whether you agree with this or not, you must concede that the explanations of existence in the Warcraft universe are overly simplified.

With this in mind, let's look at culture, and more specifically at interracial culture. The problem with creating a new race in any fantasy settings is that we, as human beings, have never experienced another race. As much as we may try to make races different or abstract, so long as they are similar to us in certain respects (sentient, bipedal, capable of speech, etc) they will undoubtedly be imparted with certain aspects of our own culture, be it from modern times or otherwise, and from any location around the world. We see this an awful lot in Warcraft in particular. Trolls are tribal, Gnomes are ingenious and intuitive, Goblins are repugnant and greedy, et cetera. This is why in a lot of fantasy settings the humans are seen as the archetypal "jack of all trades", skilled at everything but a master of nothing. Since all the other races are hyperbolic representations of aspects of humanity, humans themselves appear to be a mix of them all in comparison. Another reason behind imparting aspects of humanity onto alien races is to aid suspension of disbelief. If we are more familiar with a concept or a way of life, we are more ready to accept its existence.

So what does this mean for Tanarisi culture? If different races in Warcraft reflect different cultures from real world humanity, then where does that leave mono-racial culture differences? For the most part, these differences are incredibly slight. The biggest difference is in Troll culture, though this is explainable as the Trolls are not all the same, they hold very different physical appearances which cannot be explained by simple geography (more on that later). The second contenders are the Dwarves. They have three unique cultures, but if we look at them they are all very similar to one another. As far as I can tell (please correct me if I'm wrong), there are no differences in culture confined to one race in the Warcraft universe as significant as would be the difference between Stormwindian and Tanarisi humans. Respecting the laws of the universe, it is safe to assume that such drastic culture differences are improbably.

On another note, there is already a nice tribal race, you know?

Language

A common trope amongst Tanarisi humans is having their own language. If we are to first ignore the Blizzard QnA stating that humans first arrived only with Jaina, then let us imagine how a separate language could come about.

There is very little official lore on languages, and while the RPG has been discredited it is still a good guide unless it is later contradicted. The RPG states that Common is an almost universal language, hence the namesake. In the Warcraft games, and in WoW, races that have never ever met one another or lived even on the same planet as one another are instantly able to communicate freely via Common. The only reason the Horde races in WoW can't speak Common is for gameplay purposes, as inter-factional communication in the beta showed a "lack of maturity" in the playerbase. This all negates what we would believe to be the reason behind language in the first place; to be used as a means of communication. If everyone can speak one language, why would another be necessary? To this end, we cannot possibly explain why any race has its own language. The only possible reason for separate languages would be to converse in a way which others could not understand.

To this end, a Tanarisi language is potentially plausible, though largely unnecessary. What reason would the Tanarisi tribes have for secret communication? Who is possibly going to take advantage of this in the deserts of Tanaris? Additionally, let's use the Elvish languages as an example. Thalassian has been in development for thousands and thousands of years, and yet still bears a striking resemblance to Darnassian. Quel'dorei can interpret Darnassian quite easily and vice-versa. To this end we can assume that languages take a long time to mature, and a Tanarisi language would be no exception. The issue here is, humans as a race descended from the Vrykul are only around 15,000 years old. Would this have been enough time for a Tanarisi language to establish itself in full contrast to Common?

These are the only two reasons I can think of as to why Tanarisi humans are such a unique and attractive prospect. If you have any more to add, do feel free and I'll incorporate them with this as best I can.

REALLY BIG IMPORTANT NOTE:
I am by no means asking you to delete your Tanarisi characters. In fact, I don't expect anything of you at all. All I wish to do is offer my opinion and a place for others to discuss theirs. Disagree with anything I've said? Say so here. Got anything to add? Add it here.

One thing I will suggest is to at least attempt to explain why your character is "Tanarisi" as opposed to just saying "I've already made him/her, no going back now!" If you really wanted to you could no doubt come up with a reasonable explanation. It doesn't even need to be foolproof. What's important is you tried. Nobody can fault you for trying.

One last thing

Skin colour is a peculiar phenomenon in the Warcraft universe. As far as discernable, skin colour in any races bears no relation to geographical location. Yes a human in Tanaris would develop a tan, but a Tanarisi human could easily have a naturally fair skin pigmentation.

Now, let the discussion commence, and don't forget to vote.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Davnan on Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:16 pm

So what you are basically asking us is, should we presume that human race in Warcraft has no subraces or subcultures which carry a different variety to the rest of the race?

Trolls are definetly the most diverse of the races you listed as their culture seems to change somewhat depending on their geographical location, for example if you look at Gurubashi and Sandfury, but with those cases I would have to presume that they have "evolved" due to their location during thousands of years. You claim that their physical changes cannot be just "cannot be explained by simple geography", I'd like to disagree with that because it would make sense that Sandfury trolls skin would be able to resist the heat of the sands if they have been living there for countless thousand years. If you do not wish to use my real world comparison, then another option is just simply to presume that each of the troll "races" were created seperately and should be just treated as subspecies of each other. Wowwiki only states that they are presumed to be just some trolls left from the Gurubashi empire and during ten thousand years they managed to develop a brown skin and resistance to heat, but that's not 100 % confiremd information either, especialyl since as you said, brown skin on humans is solely based on genetics instead of sunrays.

Whatever it is, that's definetly not the case with Tanarisi and I honestly don't think they should be counted as a seperate "race" because they are not. I don't know the proper wording for it but it should be something close to tribe or a group or whatever, but race is definetly not the correct term for it.

If we look closely at the Q&A bluepost by Blizzard, it confirms that they are indeed remnants of the few first "expediary" forces of mercenaries who followed the footsteps of discovery of Kalimdor, so apparently due to the newest timeline, we can presume that they have been marooned at Tanaris for 10-15 years or so. This is not by any means enough time for them all to start develop a darkened skin due to the geographical location, I mean the Gilneas should all be pale aswell and they are not, simply due to the fact that not enough time has passed for them to "change". Meanwhile if people REALLY want to claim that all of the Tanarisi people have a dark skin, it could be presumed that all of the mercenaries/bandits who were there at the time have managed to get their skin cells mutated to produce more melanin and thus give them the ability to maintain their darkened skin tone. This is by all means not impossible, just highly unprobably in the span of 10-15 years.

Respecting the laws of the universe, it is safe to assume that such drastic culture differences are improbably.
Now that we have somewhat settled down with the biological stuff, I think we should really bring up what "really" matters here. Most people see Tanarisi as a different race while they are just a different cultural group. We see that all the time in Warcraft in different human zones for example whole zone of Westfall is portrayed to be in a "poverish" state due to its dry land and the sudden migration of extremely pissed off stonemasons. I don't have the slightest clue when this happened, but it cannot be more then 20 years and already the people of Westfall have adopted the view into their "culture". There's beggars soup and mudpie, most of them brought in those weird harvest watchers so they don't have to work in the fields themself. That's cultural adoptation if something is. It doesn't change their race but it does change their habits and way of seeing the world, which I think is the main point people are missing here. If the Tanarisi have been surviving in the desert for 15 years, it would be only natural for them to start applying different tactics such as learning how to find those valuable water wells, adopting lighter clothing, learning how to setup "cloth camps" for faster movement and naturally, if they really did exist at the time in Tanaris, camels. It's really not hard to justify their "harsh" philosophy of "only the strongest will survive". In matter of fact, if you look at the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], there's really not which can contradict these developments, in fact they would only be logical to happen.

Tanarisi language has been influenced by the sandfury trolls and adapted to the harsh desert environment, shaped by the howl of the desert winds and shifting of the sands.
The second point you really bring up is the language and I think it's pretty hard to believe that they would manage to develop their own "language" in 10-15 years. Maybe the language should be forgotten as something that really never existed or maybe it could be altered into a slang which originated from the bandits/mercenaries as somekind of code language and continued to live on? But I find it hard to sound believable that they HAD to adapt a new language similar to that of the Sandfury tribes in order to "survive". It could be forced into their "lore" but it would be incredibly tough to pull off and I don't think it would even be worth the effort.

So, Tanarisi are entirely plausible and do not contradict the Blizzard lore at all, if their "original" concept is changed a tiny bit which won't really affect them at all. One could ask, why on earth would the tribes STILL be there when they have been given the chance to leave, but in all honesty it can be worked around. Lots of fancy explorers to rob, perhaps.

I agree with your necessities to be defined in server lore but there's no need for concensus if they are indeed part of Blizzard lore, although slightly altered to fit the "existing" old server lore which was made.

I can also honestly say that I skipped the whole discworld video because I fail to even consider that to be a proper example of a "working" universe. Pratchet has jampacked his universe so full of stuff that contradict each other that he has had to change it multiple times, but thats a topic for another day. I mean, even Warcraft universe seems to be SOMEWHAT working compared to that one.
Meanwhile I really do want to ask you, if Blizzard has a given slight statement about the existance of those tribes but never given a "complete answer", do you still think it contradicts the server lore if they use the "new" Q&A and just adapt it to the past status of Tanarisi people, for example, forgetting the language? I mean if you REALLY look close at the question and the answer:

Q: If it’s the latter, why did their societies change so much in the short amount of time between then and WoW?
A:  When the Southsea pirates arrived and entered into competition with them, they were essentially marooned in Tanaris after their few ships were stolen. They took to a new life as bandits and started raiding rich goblin settlements and capturing their life-giving water wells. After the failure of Uldum’s cloaking device a few bandits split off from the Wastewanders to pilfer the treasures of the titans.

You can clearly see that even the question points towards that they have indeed changed culturally in a really short perioid, while it doesn't really make sense in comparison to real world.. It would seem like that if you are forced to live in a desert with no way out and stealing is the only way of survival, thats what you are gonna do.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Ledgic on Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:00 am

I'm a little on the fence about it, hence why I haven't voted on the poll. I had a full blown Tanarisi human before it was officially debunked in that Q&A. After which I looked at the time frame, lowered his age and basically said he was stranded there as a child along with the rest of the humans there.

The biggest off put for me was people basically taking the culture and inserting GoT into all its holes.

A lot of the time I'm all for player made lore, but this is on a much larger scale than I allow myself to accept. If people want to build a culture there now, or fit their characters into the time frame we got from that Q&A, by all means. But I have a hard time wrapping my head around "They've always been there".

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Skarain on Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:45 am

I have not voted in the pool nor posted before this since i do not consider myself having the right to say what people can or can not roleplay as long as elements belonging into Warcraft universe are used (Dracula Vampires & Wizards from Hogwarts being things that do not belong, as example).

Q: Are the Wastewander Bandits of Tanaris and nomadic humans of Uldum native to the region or did they come to Kalimdor during the period of the Third War? If it’s the latter, why did their societies change so much in the short amount of time between then and WoW?

A: The Wastewander Bandits descend from a small band of human pirates who arrived in Kalimdor shortly after its discovery by the peoples of the Eastern Kingdoms. When the Southsea pirates arrived and entered into competition with them, they were essentially marooned in Tanaris after their few ships were stolen. They took to a new life as bandits and started raiding rich goblin settlements and capturing their life-giving water wells. After the failure of Uldum’s cloaking device a few bandits split off from the Wastewanders to pilfer the treasures of the titans.

If one wish to abide into official Blizzard lore, i have 3 suggestions.

1.) Roleplay the Tanarisi as Pirates who were forced to land as with official lore of Wasterwander Bandits. Have them develop their own sub-culture, call themselves Tanarisi due to the geographical location they live in and how it have shaped them, have them learned to adapt into desert life as they have fled deeper into the desert (to escape other Pirates/competition/goblins/trolls/silithid), have found a magical ritual/have naturally adapted somehow for darker skin/use a magical potion/color their skin with mud to gain darker skin tone and protection against the sun, and having develop a code-language based on their own slang/troll language (possibly during a time while being held as slaves of trolls until they rebelled/took the Trolls culture or aspects of it to their own).

2.) Roleplay the Tanaris as descendants of a Human Magi village in Lordaeron somewhere between 3000-0 b.tdp (before the dark portal). Maybe the village had some customs, habbits or other factors that got them discriminated by other Human, or maybe the Magi of the village just wanted to try something big. Any case, they could have made a big ritual, in attempt to phase the village out to not be found (by whoever were harassed them). As result, the spell could have went wrong and the Magi cast the village through space and time.... into the center of Tanarisi. Stranded and their mage killed/drained or otherwise unable to return, they struggled to survive, eventually adapting desert survival and started the life as Tanarisi as the ruins of their village got slowly buried beneath the sands, it memory forgotten.

3.) Roleplay the Tanarisi as actual Tanarisi, descendants of Wastewander Bandits after thousands of years of life in Tanaris who were cast into present day because of a disturbance in time, either self-caused or accidental (The Bronze Dragons have lost much of their power over time). They could have their own complex culture, develop over extended periods of time, making use everything Melnerag created and more. Perhaps they are not even aware that their appearance in Tanaris by present time is a disturbance in time: maybe it was the will of their God, and how they got separated from the rest of their culture (that in the future would be much more sizable) was by the will of their god, or that the rest of the world had been lost in the sands and only now re-emerge to them.

So if Tanarisi could not have existed in the past, they can have exist in the future in one timeline, or in a past in another timeline, in another time where Humans sent out expeditionary fleets much earlier that never returned as they got stranded in Tanaris and develop a new culture.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Reynar / Raviran on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:04 am

This topic is very highlighted towards your POV and opinion, just like a newspaper really.

I'm not even sure which one I should vote for on the poll lmao, a way to make easy things complicated.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:06 am

People requested this be made its own topic, so here it is. I'd like to start by explaining my own views.

my own views.

Were you honestly surprised that the OP then reflects Adry's opinion? The poll is pretty simple, too. Do you agree with the statement? That Tanarisi lore is widely regarded on the server?

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Feral / Blackfall on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:13 am

Just to check, which answer means "I like them?" I'm not sure what "widely-regarded" means in this case. Highly-regarded? Widely played?

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:15 am

"Yes" means you think they're accepted on the server. "No" means you don't.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Adry on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:18 am

Reynar / Raviran wrote:Make a thread / poll / (Something equavalent) so we can actually start solving this problem a few of you seem to have, so if you seriously wish for this event / RP to stop so you can sleep at night, then let's take it to the next level, yeah? At this point whining about shit you don't have the answer to is meaningless.

Reynar / Raviran wrote:This topic is very highlighted towards your POV and opinion, just like a newspaper really.

I'm not even sure which one I should vote for on the poll lmao, a way to make easy things complicated.

So you want a thread and a poll but don't want a poll and don't want to hear my opinion? Okay, what?

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Feral / Blackfall on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:38 am

Righto, thanks Ixirar.

As to my own opinion, I said it on the other thread and I'll say it here, and add to it.

To start with--the Tanarisi were here since I joined the RP community, and I always found the concept fun and great to RP with as well.

Second--it was a big concept, widely-accepted by the server (from what I saw) previous to any revelation about official lore. I'd think it shoulda been sort of grandfather claused in there, considering it was roleplayed beforehand.

Third--I have never seen any lore saying there were no native humans on Kalimdor (and by NATIVE I mean a few generations, not having been plonked there back as Vrykul by the Titans). What I mean by this is, there's never been lore stating these tribes could not exist. People are jumping all over the bit that says the Wastewanders weren't natives; that's fine. That's why I mentioned, in the other thread, that you could easily say that the Wastewanders were taken in by/learned from the "true" natives, what was it, ten-twenty years ago?

The OFFICIAL BLIZZARD LORE never states that there were NOT humans on Kalimdor earlier, it merely states when the refugees, pirates, whatever, turned up, and when Jaina's refugees arrived. I really don't think it's so much of a stretch to have had a few bands arrive early, ASSUMING it's somewhere they didn't run into other races. If it was in Feralas, and would've interacted with night elves, then it'd be a silly concept, but they're in the desert. In the middle of nowhere.

Also, on the offchance you buy into "mists shrouded the entire continent" (I personally think it's a weak excuse by Blizz to explain why sailors didn't arrive), you could just as easily say, "they sailed through it." Bam. Done. Wow.

"Some human seafaring group sailed across the sea through some mist, landed in a desert, barely survived as tribes for a couple hundred years. Then the Wastewander lot crashed there, found these tribes, and were aided in survival, eventually assimilating." I don't think it's much of a stretch and it pulls together serverlore and official lore without actually breaking it.

Again, nowhere does it say there were no humans living here before. It says when Jaina's refugees arrived, and it says where the Wastewanders came from. If you want to fill in that lore gap with "no humans could have been here," that's fine. If you want to say there was a small, isolated group or two barely scratching onto survival? I'm okay with that too. EITHER way, it's serverlore. If I'm missing any lore anywhere, that's my fault and I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm wrong, but I'm unaware of anything more.

TL;DR: It doesn't really affect anyone, since nobody else bar Sandfury trolls lived there. It doesn't contradict any official lore. I'm fine with it.


Last edited by Feral / Blackfall on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:42 am

The OFFICIAL BLIZZARD LORE never states that there were NOT humans on Kalimdor earlier,

It states that the Wastewanderers were pirates who arrived after Jaina, and the only humans you see in Tanaris are Wastewanders. If there were humans before, they aren't there anymore.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Feral / Blackfall on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:43 am

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:
The OFFICIAL BLIZZARD LORE never states that there were NOT humans on Kalimdor earlier,

It states that the Wastewanderers were pirates who arrived after Jaina, and the only humans you see in Tanaris are Wastewanders. If there were humans before, they aren't there anymore.

They can be there as players. Nothing says they need to be represented by an NPC force.

There's plenty in WoW lore-wise that isn't there in WoW. If you want to use that as your reason, that's fine, but I personally don't think it's enough to stop a good concept from being roleplayed out.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:46 am

Then the players can go there and establish that culture, in the present time. Nothing is stopping them from proclaiming themselves the citizens of the Caliphate of Tanaris or whatever it is they want. If there are no native humans in Tanaris in the game world, and Blizzard states that the Wastewanders aren't native... I think it's pretty safe to say that there aren't natives in Tanaris.

Again, nothing stops players from just going there and saying "We're Tanarisi NOW". However, the fact that they weren't there before the Wastewanders means that it must be acknowledged that it's something going on NOW, not something that has been going on for generations.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Reynar / Raviran on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:46 am

Adry wrote:
Reynar / Raviran wrote:Make a thread / poll / (Something equavalent) so we can actually start solving this problem a few of you seem to have, so if you seriously wish for this event / RP to stop so you can sleep at night, then let's take it to the next level, yeah? At this point whining about shit you don't have the answer to is meaningless.

Reynar / Raviran wrote:This topic is very highlighted towards your POV and opinion, just like a newspaper really.

I'm not even sure which one I should vote for on the poll lmao, a way to make easy things complicated.

So you want a thread and a poll but don't want a poll and don't want to hear my opinion? Okay, what?

If you are going to make a poll which decides if this community accepts or doesn't the current existence of the Tanarisi, then do not highlight only your opinion on the matter and create poll answers as complicated as that. I'm not flaming your opinion, just the way you created the whole topic screaming the words 'Vote no you sheeps'.

Shouldn't the question on the poll actually be something like: Would you object to people doing this / vice-versa.
Just to check, which answer means "I like them?" I'm not sure what "widely-regarded" means in this case. Highly-regarded? Widely played?

At the moment (In the poll) your not asking for others opinion on the matter, just their thoughts about Tanarisi being relevant in the eyes of others.

EDIT:
Feral / Blackfall wrote:As to my own opinion, I said it on the other thread and I'll say it here, and add to it.

To start with--the Tanarisi were here since I joined the RP community, and I always found the concept fun and great to RP with as well.

Second--it was a big concept, widely-accepted by the server (from what I saw) previous to any revelation about official lore. I'd think it shoulda been sort of grandfather claused in there, considering it was roleplayed beforehand.

Third--I have never seen any lore saying there were no native humans on Kalimdor (and by NATIVE I mean a few generations, not having been plonked there back as Vrykul by the Titans). What I mean by this is, there's never been lore stating these tribes could not exist. People are jumping all over the bit that says the Wastewanders weren't natives; that's fine. That's why I mentioned, in the other thread, that you could easily say that the Wastewanders were taken in by/learned from the "true" natives, what was it, ten-twenty years ago?

The OFFICIAL BLIZZARD LORE never states that there were NOT humans on Kalimdor earlier, it merely states when the refugees, pirates, whatever, turned up, and when Jaina's refugees arrived. I really don't think it's so much of a stretch to have had a few bands arrive early, ASSUMING it's somewhere they didn't run into other races. If it was in Feralas, and would've interacted with night elves, then it'd be a silly concept, but they're in the desert. In the middle of nowhere.

Also, on the offchance you buy into "mists shrouded the entire continent" (I personally think it's a weak excuse by Blizz to explain why sailors didn't arrive), you could just as easily say, "they sailed through it." Bam. Done. Wow.

"Some human seafaring group sailed across the sea through some mist, landed in a desert, barely survived as tribes for a couple hundred years. Then the Wastewander lot crashed there, found these tribes, and were aided in survival, eventually assimilating." I don't think it's much of a stretch and it pulls together serverlore and official lore without actually breaking it.

Again, nowhere does it say there were no humans living here before. It says when Jaina's refugees arrived, and it says where the Wastewanders came from. If you want to fill in that lore gap with "no humans could have been here," that's fine. If you want to say there was a small, isolated group or two barely scratching onto survival? I'm okay with that too. EITHER way, it's serverlore. If I'm missing any lore anywhere, that's my fault and I'm perfectly willing to admit I'm wrong, but I'm unaware of anything more.

TL;DR: It doesn't really affect anyone, since nobody else bar Sandfury trolls lived there. It doesn't contradict any official lore. I'm fine with it.

I think this quote just covered everything I've tried to say.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Paia/Jenit on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:49 am

Widely regarded as what?

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Reynar / Raviran on Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:51 am

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:
The OFFICIAL BLIZZARD LORE never states that there were NOT humans on Kalimdor earlier,

It states that the Wastewanderers were pirates who arrived after Jaina, and the only humans you see in Tanaris are Wastewanders. If there were humans before, they aren't there anymore.

I don't really see a reason to stop now that the Blizzard has announced that the NPC's around the area are not native. Since we're by no means trying to RP as them.

So if you can't see them in-game that means they don't exist?

What was that about player-made lore again?

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by The Great Jack Ironside on Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:01 am

I think the people who are so against all of this are just going to have to accept that if people want to RP something, they will regardless of public opinion. If people see a way to RP out their idea as some type of Tanarisi then let them do it. Tanaris is a long way away from Stormwind, and if it bothers you that much maybe you should stop using your vacation time to go to a silithid, scorpion, troll, dragon, pirate, goblin infested desert. Or you can keep going so we can have more top notch forum posts like this. BUT THAT'S JUST MY TWO CENTS

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Adry on Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:02 am

The War of the Ancients novel has Tyrande cast a fog over Kalimdor that hides it from view for the rest of the world, which was only lifted at around Warcraft times.

Anyway this thread is devolving from an attempt at a healthy discourse to shit-flinging. Ray, if I make a thread to host a discussion, I'm obviously going to present my own opinion. As would you. And everyone else. Stop being pedantic.

As for the poll question, it is what it is. If you read the first paragraph of my op, you'll see that it's just a question on whether the community accepts it. It would be incredibly unreasonable to ask the question "should tanarisi RP be allowed" on a forum which does not incorporate nor reflect the entire community.

Now, I'm done with this bickering.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Vardrek/Burgen on Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:05 am

Bashiok Cdev US forums wrote:Q: Are the Wastewander Bandits of Tanaris and nomadic humans of Uldum native to the region or did they come to Kalimdor during the period of the Third War? If it’s the latter, why did their societies change so much in the short amount of time between then and WoW?
A: The Wastewander Bandits descend from a small band of human pirates who arrived in Kalimdor shortly after its discovery by the peoples of the Eastern Kingdoms.* When the Southsea pirates arrived and entered into competition with them, they were essentially marooned in Tanaris after their few ships were stolen. They took to a new life as bandits and started raiding rich goblin settlements and capturing their life-giving water wells. After the failure of Uldum’s cloaking device a few bandits split off from the Wastewanders to pilfer the treasures of the titans.

*Meaning no humans there as it was not previously discovered by them.

It contradicts lore severely, not okay with it.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Lavian on Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:30 am

Vardrek/Burgen wrote:
Bashiok Cdev US forums wrote:Q: Are the Wastewander Bandits of Tanaris and nomadic humans of Uldum native to the region or did they come to Kalimdor during the period of the Third War? If it’s the latter, why did their societies change so much in the short amount of time between then and WoW?
A: The Wastewander Bandits descend from a small band of human pirates who arrived in Kalimdor shortly after its discovery by the peoples of the Eastern Kingdoms.* When the Southsea pirates arrived and entered into competition with them, they were essentially marooned in Tanaris after their few ships were stolen. They took to a new life as bandits and started raiding rich goblin settlements and capturing their life-giving water wells. After the failure of Uldum’s cloaking device a few bandits split off from the Wastewanders to pilfer the treasures of the titans.

*Meaning no humans there as it was not previously discovered by them.

It contradicts lore severely, not okay with it.

"Discovered by people of the eastern kingdoms" Yes, people of The Eastern Kingdoms That doesn't say anything, Burgen. I remember reading a very long time ago back during the first races of Kalimdor, or rather the earlier elves(Trolls? I cant remember at all) there was something about early human slavery.. I just can't recall the source for it.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Vardrek/Burgen on Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:50 am

Yes, but you also have to take in the fact that the question asked if the Wastewanders were native, I think the Cdevs who talk to Chris Metzen and Alex Afriasbi about the lore of the game to then tell the fans, would at least clarify upon if any natives actually existed at any point, but no they merely state two things 1. Wastewander bandits are pirates who lost their ships, 2.That they were human pirates who arrived in Kalimdor short after it's discovery by the peoples of the Eastern Kingdoms.

Now if we look at Vrykul-Human lore we see that the Humans whom descended from Vrykul travelled into the Eastern Kingdoms to settle taking with them various stories/legends from their homeland such as Tyr.

I am afraid people are just going to have to accept that their is no native humans in Tanaris, the only natives would be the Sandfury Trolls and if we go by the troll lore of regeneration that is so frequently ret-conned any humans that were there would have been wiped out by a regenerating army of Sandfury trolls, nevermind the Silithid in the wars between Bronze Dragonflight and Night elf Alliance which was relatively close to the area.

Then if we're to say that these natives are recent natives aka children of immigrants we must then look at the timeline which is about 10-13 years since we discovered Tanaris and Kalimdor, so we must look upon that as a point  because then they would be children not 22 year old men and women.

So far it appears that evidence is routinely and consistently stacking up against the notion of Tanarisi.

(Also have to point out you have an invested interest in Tanarisi Rp, seeing as you've Roleplayed one.)

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Lavian on Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:30 am

Vardrek/Burgen wrote:

(Also have to point out you have an invested interest in Tanarisi Rp, seeing as you've Roleplayed one.)

Correction. Faked RPing as a tanarasi, a cover back on my demoness toon ages back off of already existing server lore of it(Mainly because of that chars "close" ties with Sophyra). Yet you're not going to let it drop because its you.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by NicholasBullard (Taph) on Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:52 am

I'd like to start working towards a solution. What do you guys think about a combination of any of these aspects?

I for one would be interested in this kind of RP. Who's with me?

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:Then the players can go there and establish that culture, in the present time. Nothing is stopping them from proclaiming themselves the citizens of the Caliphate of Tanaris or whatever it is they want.

Again, nothing stops players from just going there and saying "We're Tanarisi NOW".


Skarain wrote:If one wish to abide into official Blizzard lore, i have 3 suggestions.

1.) Roleplay the Tanarisi as Pirates who were forced to land as with official lore of Wasterwander Bandits. Have them develop their own sub-culture, call themselves Tanarisi due to the geographical location they live in and how it have shaped them, have them learned to adapt into desert life as they have fled deeper into the desert (to escape other Pirates/competition/goblins/trolls/silithid), have found a magical ritual/have naturally adapted somehow for darker skin/use a magical potion/color their skin with mud to gain darker skin tone and protection against the sun, and having develop a code-language based on their own slang/troll language (possibly during a time while being held as slaves of trolls until they rebelled/took the Trolls culture or aspects of it to their own).

2.) Roleplay the Tanaris as descendants of a Human Magi village in Lordaeron somewhere between 3000-0 b.tdp (before the dark portal). Maybe the village had some customs, habbits or other factors that got them discriminated by other Human, or maybe the Magi of the village just wanted to try something big. Any case, they could have made a big ritual, in attempt to phase the village out to not be found (by whoever were harassed them). As result, the spell could have went wrong and the Magi cast the village through space and time.... into the center of Tanarisi. Stranded and their mage killed/drained or otherwise unable to return, they struggled to survive, eventually adapting desert survival and started the life as Tanarisi as the ruins of their village got slowly buried beneath the sands, it memory forgotten.

3.) Roleplay the Tanarisi as actual Tanarisi, descendants of Wastewander Bandits after thousands of years of life in Tanaris who were cast into present day because of a disturbance in time, either self-caused or accidental (The Bronze Dragons have lost much of their power over time). They could have their own complex culture, develop over extended periods of time, making use everything Melnerag created and more. Perhaps they are not even aware that their appearance in Tanaris by present time is a disturbance in time: maybe it was the will of their God, and how they got separated from the rest of their culture (that in the future would be much more sizable) was by the will of their god, or that the rest of the world had been lost in the sands and only now re-emerge to them.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Tamil on Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:04 am

Just highlighting a few things people have said. These seem relevant to me, but might have been overlooked in the discussion

Skarain wrote:i do not consider myself having the right to say what people can or can not roleplay as long as elements belonging into Warcraft universe are used

I think no one has (or should have) that authority.

The Great Jack Ironside wrote:I think the people who are so against all of this are just going to have to accept that if people want to RP something, they will regardless of public opinion. If people see a way to RP out their idea as some type of Tanarisi then let them do it. Tanaris is a long way away from Stormwind

Adry wrote:REALLY BIG IMPORTANT NOTE:
I am by no means asking you to delete your Tanarisi characters. In fact, I don't expect anything of you at all. All I wish to do is offer my opinion and a place for others to discuss theirs.

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Re: Tanarisi Humans Discussion

Post by Vardrek/Burgen on Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:32 am

Is there a closing date for the poll?

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