Abuse of lore?

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Feral / Blackfall on Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:06 pm

Yes they're powerful. But they also have to know how to RP combat. If he's truly playing a skilled character, his emoted responses and attacks should display that skill. You can't -not- dodge an attack and say "I still don't get hurt because I am old."

That's the TL;DR. Now I'm going to add something though. It's possible that if you're playing a warlock who can use nature magic, and on another char a druid who can use shadow (something that only trolls really have been seen doing--and they do that through the loa, not channeling it through their bodies, since natural magics would try to burn that shadow away), it's also possible that -you- were doing things wrong, and the Draenei just playing OP back at you to prevent himself being roflstomped.

So, while no, an "experienced character" doesn't excuse bad combat RP (though it can excuse characters with high power/many skills), there may be two sides to the story. If you tried talking to them about it and they were unreasonable, and their explanations were the ones that you listed here, then yeah, it's probably just poor roleplay.

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Lexgrad on Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:24 pm

Firstly I wouldnt fixate on the fact it is a Death knight. Bad rpers are bad not a class.

Secondly I shall not comment on the case as even though I assume it is as you say, I find it unwise to comment until I have heard both sides of the story.

Thirdly, just for the sake of balance why do you all think one side had a right to win anyway? Experience and situations can mean a 2v1 isnt always a win for the 2. I would suggest to anyone in this that you let one of the out numbering force get knocked back or something, make it more fun as a fight.

Finally, as a RPer of loads of DKs I am sorry to say that we are OP and carry many advantages, that is lore and fact, I try to reduce power as much as possible, but it is v hard to justify an average warrior beating an average DK. Lock might have a chance, but if the DK got into melee range for any time you are gonna be lock sushi v quickly unless you pop plot armour.

So in summery - Dont fuck around with any DK, however good they are at RP, you are obliged to still act IC as your char would.

No class or concept is bad, just some players.

DB, dont jump to any conclusion, no matter how strong the case is without evidence.

Finally, RP is a group activity, if it is 100 vs 1 you should still try to share the story with the 1.

(Note, this isnt aimed at anyone, just general wisdom of the Lexadin <3)

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Anivitas on Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:54 pm

Even though all the fluff is there for death knights being very strong, I tend to try and use the large arsenal of tricks a death knight can use to make the fight more flowing and enjoyable. The person has to realize that when fighting, blocking every blow and avoiding every spell simply isn't fun for the other party.

To be honest, I can't really see how it would be fun for either party, but maybe that's just me.

I find the best thing to do is take hits, take damage. I mean your a walking corpse. You have the ability to emote damage on yourself that most wouldn't survive. For instance the time Ani took a musket round in the face.

In a 2v1 scenario, unless the death knight is fighting farmers with pitchforks, its safe to assume that the people he or she is fighting are fairly competent, and so in that scenario the -LEAST- he can do is take some damage.

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Sandros Shvilkovsky on Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:18 pm

Tnecniw wrote:then when I explained that magic thing... he just went on with that he had saronite armor and things. I am not so deep into saronite myself... does it REALLY do that?

Death Knights like to neglect that prolonged exposure to saronite is supposed to drive creatures with free will (which current DKs are) insane. The ore is tainted with Yogg-Saron corruption. I suppose you could argue that the Old God is dead after Ulduar, but it was never specified whether it was killed or simply banished (the latter much more likely considering the scope of the enemy). In other words, trotting about in saronite should be in determent to the wearer's sanity unless they are a demigod.

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Feral / Blackfall on Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:32 pm

Sandros Shvilkovsky wrote:
Tnecniw wrote:then when I explained that magic thing... he just went on with that he had saronite armor and things. I am not so deep into saronite myself... does it REALLY do that?

Death Knights like to neglect that prolonged exposure to saronite is supposed to drive creatures with free will (which current DKs are) insane. The ore is tainted with Yogg-Saron corruption. I suppose you could argue that the Old God is dead after Ulduar, but it was never specified whether it was killed or simply banished (the latter much more likely considering the scope of the enemy). In other words, trotting about in saronite should be in determent to the wearer's sanity unless they are a demigod.

Undead are immune to this; it's why the Lich King's armies (including DKs) built everything out of it. It's covered in a quest or two in Howling Fjord iirc, as well as quite a bit of other lore. It's pretty clear lorewise that to be affected by an Old God, you need to be living flesh--metal, undead, stone creatures, not affected.

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Tnecniw on Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:00 am

Feral / Blackfall wrote:Yes they're powerful. But they also have to know how to RP combat. If he's truly playing a skilled character, his emoted responses and attacks should display that skill. You can't -not- dodge an attack and say "I still don't get hurt because I am old."

That's the TL;DR. Now I'm going to add something though. It's possible that if you're playing a warlock who can use nature magic, and on another char a druid who can use shadow (something that only trolls really have been seen doing--and they do that through the loa, not channeling it through their bodies, since natural magics would try to burn that shadow away), it's also possible that -you- were doing things wrong, and the Draenei just playing OP back at you to prevent himself being roflstomped.

So, while no, an "experienced character" doesn't excuse bad combat RP (though it can excuse characters with high power/many skills), there may be two sides to the story. If you tried talking to them about it and they were unreasonable, and their explanations were the ones that you listed here, then yeah, it's probably just poor roleplay.
Indeed, I myself isn't that good at combat and I might have understood something wrong (I can myself sometimes have trouble with knowing the balance of taking damage and dodging it for example) but I don't dodge/parry 10 emotes in a row from two guys at the same time (and come with the explanations that I gave before).

but you also brought up thing here which have confused me for a while. HOW DOES MAGIC WORK?! I mean, as far as I know is there NO offical correct lore on HOW magic works (that blizzard actually could release as a book or something xD WoW magical instrucktions, would sell like butter) which makes fighting with mages/warlocks ECT very hard

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by siegmund on Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:08 am

HOW DOES MAGIC WORK?!

There are no definite answers that or some parts of some magic are explained to an extent. Your best bet if you want to read on things is to check books/comics/etc. but also if you don't want long reads some player made guides have info or quotes from books and so on, though a lot of guides have a lot of theorycrafting as well and in the end they are only guides.

I found pages like Know your lore - Wow Insider or Wowopedia decent the first a bit better then the latter in most things as well as magic but quite a lot is open to speculation.

Also:

For instance the time Ani took a musket round in the face.

Some alive people survive such as well! On the other hand the Dark queen got one shot in the back of the head. But going deep into undead or living and what kills them or not would be a long discussion and as we know fate is a cruel cruel something.

And lastly as clicking links is too much of a chore a summary:

Feranos - [setting][guide] FERANOS's guide to Metals and Minerals wrote:-- SARONITE -- (PART 4) ((TL;DR))

Now, I realize this has been a long-winded explanation on my part, but here is my (sort-of) conclusion to all of this information (as I see it).

1. Saronite -Ore- is indeed extremely resistant to seemingly any and all attacks, and it is -very- light.

2. Saronite can make the living go insane from the whispers and influence of Yogg-Saron, and though the undead are resistant to Yogg-Saron's influence, they can still hear his whispers.

3. Saronite Ore that goes through the smelting process (which it must, if you are to make use of it) loses its toughness to quite a large degree, going by the canon WotLK quests, though it can apparently still pierce armour, even if the smelted ore is brittle.

4. Smelted Saronite can be tempered to make the metal more suitable for combat, but logically speaking, the (presumably) Tempered Saronite is still capable of breaking, according to the "Edge of Night" short story.

5. This means that, for all you roleplayers out there, your suit of saronite armour (or saronite weapons) can probably still shatter, whether they're made of raw or infused saronite. So, as far as I can tell, it's not an impervious -metal- after smelting as many people might've thought, even if the ore is nigh unbreakable.

And that's pretty much everything I've found on Saronite (thus far). I hope that helps!

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Officer High Morale on Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:53 am

I don't think you should ever think your character is better than someone else's character, unless you're an Archmage and your opponent is a mere novice sorcerer, for example. But yeah, the two sound like your original almighty DB roleplayers, you should probably whisper them and talk about it, or just ignore them.

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Vaell on Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:00 am

Standard Power: Bandits, Footmen, Guardsmen etc.
Hero power: All WoW classes. Warriors, Paladins, Warlocks can all stand toe to toe with a DK.
Boss power: Needs groups of heroes to take down.


DKs aren't stronger than your class. Most people like to rp warriors as slightly advanced footmen though, in which case, a DK would probably win.

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:53 am

Well Vaell, vs a warrior they are stronger, I say this for quite a few logical reasons.

1 - A DK was likely a Warrior or paladin in life, being as the bodies are taken from battlefields. Weak DKs did not survive the Acherus. So as a base point a DK in life was equal to a Warror, knight, w/e.

2 - They then add their bonuses, such as Unholy strength, unlimited stamina, huge durability. These are all things a DK has over a living warrior.

3 - A warrior uses a nice Weapon, so does a DK however a DKs blade has runic powers which are designed for killing shit in combat.

4 - Even if you assume that the Warrior has no family or job andspends as much of their life training as they can, they still do not come close to the Gym time a DK has. It is their all, no sleep, no family, no holiday, just train and fight.

Some times in the paper scissors rock of combat you must accept you are at a disadvantage. For a Warrior without light that is a DK.

People are always on about Undeads being weak to light, this is exactly the same principle.

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Vaell on Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:14 pm

Lexgrad wrote:Well Vaell, vs a warrior they are stronger, I say this for quite a few logical reasons.

1 - A DK was likely a Warrior or paladin in life, being as the bodies are taken from battlefields.  Weak DKs did not survive the Acherus.  So as a base point a DK in life was equal to a Warror, knight, w/e.
An experienced fighter, yes. But bare in mind that you can play a warrior that survived the hardships of the Scourge and overcame their enemies. There's nothing in lore that says the mass produced DKs of the Archerus are the strongest of the classes. Against footmen, they would triumph. But WoW warriors are like they are in game. Super strong, fast and powerful beings.

Lexgrad wrote:2 - They then add their bonuses, such as Unholy strength, unlimited stamina, huge durability. These are all things a DK has over a living warrior.
We know that strength alone can't win a fight. But I'll bite: enrage, Berserker Rage, all the shouts etc. Warriors are adrenaline and ferocity personified if you so wish to play one like that.

Lexgrad wrote:3- A warrior uses a nice Weapon, so does a DK however a DKs blade has runic powers which are designed for killing shit in combat.
Warriors weapons are also designed for killing shit in combat... Nothing, again, states an Archerus DKs blade is better than all other swords or axes.

Lexgrad wrote:4 - Even if you assume that the Warrior has no family or job andspends as much of their life training as they can, they still do not come close to the Gym time a DK has.  It is their all, no sleep, no family, no holiday, just train and fight.
Warrior - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Read the background. They're renowned for immense combat. They're the heroes of history. Don't apply too much logic to it. Someone rping a proper Warrior could go head to head with a player DK.

DKs are NOT the counter to warriors. Don't make up lore lol.

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Izzifix on Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:27 pm

Gotta agree with Vaell.

The issue in the "imbalance" with dks and emotefights is that most every death knight will be rped as a fighter of Power level: Adventurer (at which point every class evens out), while a lot of other rpers rp their characters a slightly lower power levels.

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Feral / Blackfall on Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:38 pm

Tnecniw wrote: HOW DOES MAGIC WORK?!

Depends on the magic type. There's a LOT of conflicting lore out there, and some lacking; the lore on shadow, for example, is probably the absolute worst lore in the game. For arcane, it's very clear. For fel, it's so-so. For Light, nature, so-so. For voodoo it's relatively clear, at least on the player level, though where the -loa- get their power, not so much, I think?

It's a LOT to go into here, but if you have specific questions maybe that'd be easier to answer. I think you could probably ask here, or poke me in PM if you want, I will try to answer anything I can.

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:42 pm

Verywell both of you, pls point out if there is something a DK can counter for me.

And Vaell, if you concider any of my points made up pls point out which so I can dick slap you. Every point I made is completely reasonable and logical. Disprove me or tuck your tail between your legs.

(<3 cos its vaell.)

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Vaell on Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:09 pm

Disprove my counter points. Find me lore that says a DK is the counter to a warrior. An Archerus DK, that is.

If WoW's intention was to emphasise DKs as the strongest class, the only bit of evidence pointing towards it is starting at level 55. But if a warrior surpasses level 55, they're on equal ground, right?

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:11 pm

You think level is relevant?

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:17 pm

The warrior class doesn't portray a footman. All playable classes are meant to portray the equivalent of warcraft 3 hero units. Was the Death Knight any bit stronger than the Mountain King in WC3? No, he wasn't.

The warrior class portrays one of the people who started at the bottom but rose way beyond his peers and was able to stand on par with all the magic users and shit. Let's look at people like Varian, Lothar, Grommash, Doomhammer, Blackhand, Kilrogg, Kargath. All of these are warriors with very minimal magic and every one of them would be able to stand toe to toe with a random death knight ANY day. Hell, Grommash killed the strongest Pit Lord in the universe.

There's nothing in the game to suggest that DKs are lorewise stronger than/counters to the warriors that are playable (read: Not the footmen)


Also, Lexgrad, you can't just make up claims and then challenge people to disprove them. Vaell questioned the legitimacy of your claims, now it's up to you to provide sources that support your claim. THEN it's up to Vaell to refute it.

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Haen Strongwind on Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:24 am

Bite your tongue and move on. I'm open to many things, but I simply won't RP with someone who refuses to lose.  If I'm fighting someone much stronger than me I'm happy to lose 10/10 times.  If I'm losing because he's power RPing though, he can forget it.

Edit: though saying that, I think power should be earned through either in game or IC things. If I'm a well played and RP'd level 90 in decent gear fighting a freshly rolled level 10 character I'm not just going to bow over and surrender to an invincible foe because his player just "created him that way."

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Re: Abuse of lore?

Post by Feral / Blackfall on Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:23 am

My own personal view is that level and gear should have nothing to do with roleplay (the playing of a role). But something people forget is that an RP char is meant to be just that--playing of a role, not acting out your ego IC. I roll into combat with anyone, and judge the outcome by the characters' actions, nothing OOC like level, or guild tag or class. If their character kicks mine's ass fine--the fun of losing and the char development that comes from it is underrated, imo. If they godemote or poweremote I'll find a way out that isn't bothersome to either of us.

Everyone's different, it's not about "bowing and surrendering," it's more about working together, and amicably avoiding those you can't work together with.

People seem to overthink this for-fun -game- far too much!

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Re: Abuse of lore?

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