Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by erwtenpeller on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:32 am

It's fun how Tnecniw always manages to trigger a huge discussion with their very bland threads. What a Face

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Timna on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:33 am

Here is an idea for you; it sounds like your concept of someone who wants to spread suffering and takes sick pleasure from other people's pain could be best applied without all this freaky water magic.
Imagine, if you will, a character who uses the emotions of others (maybe through romance) to get what she wants. Perhaps when she wants someone dead she doesn't go out and do it herself but manipulates the men wrapped around her finger to do it for her; or even hires professional assassins.

I think you'd have infinitely more fun with a character who pretends to be sweet and lovely who is evil behind the scenes and uses others to do what she wants rather than this magic which doesn't necessarily fit in the WoW universe.

Do like this plan, actually. It's fun to play a character that dances the thin line.

_____________________________________________________
[A] Timna "Void"- "To let go of my past, but always remember." & "Spite grows in idle soldiers."
[A] Victoriya Torosian - "Wha'cha got there?"
[A] Ariandra Fox-Alence -  "I remember I could not leave. No shackles were as terrifying as his stare upon me at that moment, like a coyote staring at its prey."
[A] Aldaya "The Sculptor" Vindico - "Have the heart that I lost, child. Treat it and others well, as long as it beats, and even when it no longer does."

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Tnecniw on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:44 am

erwtenpeller wrote:It's fun how Tnecniw always manages to trigger a huge discussion with their very bland threads. What a Face
I am impressive, indeed xD

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Tnecniw on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:47 am

The Z wrote:
Ralegh wrote:And just quickly on Brutal Legend.
I found that game wildly dissapointing.
I really really really wanted to like it but it kept forcing the RTS aspect to much which honestly was the crappiest part of the gameplay... Atleast on console.
Oh man, what I wouldn't have given to have it be just a regular platformer. Maybe I could forgive that if I'd be a complete metalhead because of the overall cool design the game had going for it, but since that's not the case, that crap bothered me way too much.

/offtopic
(offtopic) you where dissapointed, because you thought it would just be another GOD of WAR clone. (or something like that) I prefer personally to think of it as a new step towards a more action based RTS. From my point of view was it a great action game, with three cool factions, with solid RTS and great music to that. It was a great game for me

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Tnecniw on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:48 am

Skaraa wrote:How are you defining stereotypical good? You mention grey characters in there; I think most characters are grey, really. The only alternatives to being morally grey (at some stage or another) is to be a lawful good zealot or a chaotic evil baddie. Everything between those extremes are grey in one respect or another.

Good characters are surely anyone who wants to end up doing what their culture deems as 'the right thing'. This includes morally grey characters.

Back on topic:

Here is an idea for you; it sounds like your concept of someone who wants to spread suffering and takes sick pleasure from other people's pain could be best applied without all this freaky water magic.
Imagine, if you will, a character who uses the emotions of others (maybe through romance) to get what she wants. Perhaps when she wants someone dead she doesn't go out and do it herself but manipulates the men wrapped around her finger to do it for her; or even hires professional assassins.

I think you'd have infinitely more fun with a character who pretends to be sweet and lovely who is evil behind the scenes and uses others to do what she wants rather than this magic which doesn't necessarily fit in the WoW universe.

My main Skaraa (before I transferred him here) was an antagonist in this way for a long time. He got away with so much because everyone responsible for bringing him down loved his outward persona and refused to believe right up until the end that he was secretly so very twisted. He was more chaotic good (justifying his evil deeds with a 'greater good' endgame) but the road to power through manipulation would be much the same.

I hope these ideas help you.
*Pales, slowly start so applaude* I must say, I didn't think of this before... that sounds like a fun plan xD I will probably not do it like that entirely (cause I kind of prefer to do it my own way) but I will indeed take some ideas from it.
(Edit: I won't take away the water magic. It will still be there, also... how doesn't water magic fit into WoW? I mean,if you could use shadow magic combined with water magic in some way (look frostfirebolt for example) it could work... also that shadow magic is attuned to mind magic it would be plausible, though I can see why you think it maybe don't fit)

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Kittrina on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:53 am

Little to add apart from that the BEST bad guys in my experience genuinely believe they're the good guys. Also they have players who know/are conscious of this, major point to add (I've certainly had run ins with characters who murdered, tortured, and killed and would still complain 'Why do you guys hate (character) so much?! He's a good guy!").

And when I say 'best' I mean, most interesting to play with, least likely to get into drama, etc etc etc. That doesn't mean all of them were zealots etc, a 'dark' character that believes their goals are for the good of the nation/righteous/for personal 'justice' etc, can be brilliant if pulled off well.

Also people are talking a lot about 'win' and 'lose' here- what are we meaning by these terms? Death? Destruction of plans/disbanding of followers?

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:13 am

Timna wrote:
Adry wrote:
Timna wrote:How about no. This is not true. You're talking through the viewpoint of single player games and movies. The most interesting roleplay I've ever had through my years on this server and many others, as well as D&D and other types of roleplay, is when the villain is in the top deck and winning. This type of mindset kills the villains desire to play and continue playing the villain, and then cue the 'we don't have any evil guys on the server' threads and chats. The -only- issue I've had so far with playing a villain and playing a good guy - is that the good guys refuse to lose. That, in my opinion, is wrong. Oh so very wrong. Just my two cents, as this statement you've made is quite infuriating.

The tip to a good villain in my opinion is to aim big. "I want to destroy azeroth!" sure. But you'll most likely never accomplish that END GOAL. But the goals to get to that goal? "Destroy the infidel that is messing with our plans"? Definitely. I've had one of my characters lose an arm and be a cripple for the rest of her life because, guess what, I lost. As the good guy. And the bad guy won. And it's effing amazing to roleplay.

Why all this hate. I never said you have to lose in every single small instance, and I had assumed people would be bright enough to ascertain that. Here, I'll make it more plain for you and others:

AS A VILLAIN YOUR JOB IS TO NOT ACCOMPLISH YOUR END GOAL

By all means, blow people up from time to time. And calm down. Here is a soothing duck:
soothing duck:
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Perhaps clarity is in order. My opinions are my own, and I wanted to say that what you said is definitely not a rulebook - but neither is mine. It's a line of preference, and if the opponent - good or bad - doesn't agree, bad things may happen. And as a villain you can easily accomplish your end goal - I have many times - it's just a matter of keeping it going. If someone's end goal is to get a house of evil people.. sure. It might be a stepping stone, but for that one moment, it's still the villain's end goal. And I agree, even if this is a game where the 'bad guy' (quotation marks, most likely a grey moral) usually loses.. say they kill someone but fixes their trail brilliantly? I just personally don't see it as the villain's responsibility to give a track to follow. Sometimes, the 'bad guy' goes free.

Might just be me now. And as I said, it's just my two cents, and if you take my opinions offensively..  scratch Can't do much about that, can I.

If creating a house of evil people is a stepping stone, it's not your end goal. The end goal, however, should never be accomplished for any character. The only thing is, for evil people, they need to -have- one. If you have an unobtainable end goal, you have an infinite source of evil. Say my char wants to destroy the society of Stormwind and throw the realm into chaos; I can never feasibly do that, so having the end-goal means there will ALWAYS be a reason to keep doing evil. I can always keep working towards it, as long as I am OOCly aware that it's going to end either by someone defeating my char, or by me growing bored and abandoning the character. That's the purpose of an end-goal in an RP setting such as WoW. If my end-goal was to, say, kill the minister of justice (I've no idea who the current minister of justice is, I'm just naming a seat here), then what do I do after I kill him? Then I've won. Then I need to think up a new motivation to keep doing what I do. My character, even if only briefly and temporarily, loses his ultimate sense of purpose. A villain with no end-goal is a pointless character, because without an end-goal, you'll end up just doing evil because you're evil.

Fixing your trail brilliantly in an RP setting like WoW isn't an impressive play because literally all it takes is for me to type "/e fixes up his trail brilliantly, leaving no traces" and with that emote I've effectively made sure no more RP will come from my crime. This is boring play from the villain, and it's excessively infuriating for law enforcement. The proper thing to do is letting the good guys find a lead. Invite them to participate in your RP. This requires mutual respect and trust: The villain needs to trust the good guys to not stomp all over his RP, creating very boring RP for the villain, and likewise the good guys need to trust the villain to be able to create interesting RP, and respect his plot enough to not stomp all over it. Which brings me to my last point.

When RPing, your OOC motivation should never be to win or accomplish any goals at all. As long as you're OOCly striving for your character to accomplish something, you'll start thinking of those who would stand in your way as competitors. The mutual respect and trust I mentioned before? 99% of the time, it's not present while competing. If you're competing, you want to advance your own agenda while making sure the other parties fall behind. This is not healthy RP. If you feel like you're competing with your IC opponents, and that only the winner gets to enjoy the RP, you're not RPing a villain properly.


To sum it all up: As a villain, your job is not to accomplish your end goal. It also isn't to provide the good guys with some ultimate victory at some point. When you play a villain, your job is to create tension and conflict. This conflict needs to be wholly IC, and the notions of winning or losing shouldn't be things you think of OOCly. Always set an end-goal that you know OOCly your character can never achieve, because if you have an unachievable end goal, you can keep doing evil no matter how many times you fail. Your char will always have motivation, and you will always be able to do your main job in the RP Metagame: Creating tension.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Tnecniw on Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:23 am

and this is why rolls are good... you could use a rule like: 0-50 there is obvious clues, not that good cleaning. 50-70 pretty good cleaning requires a roll of 50+ to find anything 70-90 barely anything there... need a roll of 80+ to find anything. 90-99 HOLY SHIT, there is almost only dust left, need a 100 roll to find anything. 100 NOTHING LEFT, impossible to trail.
(this was for the trail problem BTW)

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Adry on Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:36 am

Timna wrote:How about no. This is not true.

Timna wrote:My opinions are my own, and I wanted to say that what you said is definitely not a rulebook - but neither is mine.

Do you see why I got offended here. For future reference, opening with "NO YOU'RE WRONG" on an almost entirely subjective matter isn't going to get you anywhere.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by The Z on Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:39 am

Tnecniw wrote:(offtopic) you where dissapointed, because you thought it would just be another GOD of WAR clone. (or something like that) I prefer personally to think of it as a new step towards a more action based RTS. From my point of view was it a great action game, with three cool factions, with solid RTS and great music to that. It was a great game for me
God of War is a whole different thing. I should rephrase myself by saying that the gameplay was already good enough as it is for a third person action/jumpin' platformer. 'twas just the open world that I thought was (while not bad in itself) unneeded and the terribad RTS parts. If they had just kept it more linear, I would've been a happy player. But I guess that has been a problem with almost all past Tim Schafer games = Awesome and original ideas all around, with bland/bad gamemechanics wrapped around them.

But enough about that from me. It is as it is and can't be changed. Possible further discussion about that can probably go over here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Dyone on Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:50 am

My two cents about..RPing a "bad" character.

Did you concider going scourge? In lore and RP, the scourge is still active. Yeah, it has been weakenend since Arthas died and mister flame head carries the crown.. But it's still out there. If you want to Roleplay a villian, a bad character, you can just do the easy style, create a Death Knight and go bad..or do it the hard style and create a Shadow Priest..or a palladin gone rogue, a vicious Warrior who still follows the Scourge, even after all these years.

You can... Be upset and torned down after Arthas passed away, not sure what to do...and be aware of your scourge powers..and become evil on it's own...I've been in a scourge RP guild...and our guild leaders..man they where evil.. Not haha evil..no, you dissapoint me...im going to trough you out of the flying building evil. They have gathered their minions arround them..Me including..(they didnt like me much thou..a gnome DK is never truelly evil..but sometimes annoying curious and funny...but i aimed for that so... Smile )

So yeah... i know for them to be truelly evil. We had this amazing draenei shaman, ((barunita..dunno if you fella's know her..but she was the best)) and she placed down some great dark evil RP.

Yeah..what im just trying to say. Want to go bad and evil? Go research some scourge RP...it's almost every time a safe bet.

Edit..just saw this 9gag post..wich i think suits just right Smile

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Greetings, Charkly

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Vaell on Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:02 am

There's no do or do not as an evil character. In fact, there's no do or do nots as any character. You can follow cliché which is fine or you could go outside the box, which is also dandy.

Whatever is the most fun to play and doesn't ruin other people's RP, but instead heightens it, is the best choice of action.


By all means, play an evil character with his only motive being "I like being evil".

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:12 am

Mind you the OP isn't asking for a rulebook, he's asking for advice.

Sure, you can play a char who's just evil because "evil". But the char will be bland as hell and we're giving advice to avoid going that way.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Izzifix on Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:23 am

Adry wrote:
Do you see why I got offended here. For future reference, opening with "NO YOU'RE WRONG" on an almost entirely subjective matter isn't going to get you anywhere.
Adry, you're a catlion, stop trying to be a female dog, it's not your style and you're not pulling it off What a Face 

Seriously though, except for the "always lose" part, your post was good. Losing isn't necessary as long as you keep your evils on a less significant scale (or as Timna argues, work really hard).

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Vaell on Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:37 am

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:Mind you the OP isn't asking for a rulebook, he's asking for advice.

Sure, you can play a char who's just evil because "evil". But the char will be bland as hell and we're giving advice to avoid going that way.
Bland is a matter of perspective. I could write a character who's evil for the sake of evil and give him more depth than the mediterranean, it's just about spending time on a character.

Simply, just make a character with a simple basis and role-play from there. Shape it in game. The only advice I can give is to make something that you can be subtle with because as fun as it is to play the Darth Vader/Sauron big baddie, you won't find much random RP.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Skaraa on Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:38 pm

Tnecniw wrote:
Skaraa wrote:How are you defining stereotypical good? You mention grey characters in there; I think most characters are grey, really. The only alternatives to being morally grey (at some stage or another) is to be a lawful good zealot or a chaotic evil baddie. Everything between those extremes are grey in one respect or another.

Good characters are surely anyone who wants to end up doing what their culture deems as 'the right thing'. This includes morally grey characters.

Back on topic:

Here is an idea for you; it sounds like your concept of someone who wants to spread suffering and takes sick pleasure from other people's pain could be best applied without all this freaky water magic.
Imagine, if you will, a character who uses the emotions of others (maybe through romance) to get what she wants. Perhaps when she wants someone dead she doesn't go out and do it herself but manipulates the men wrapped around her finger to do it for her; or even hires professional assassins.

I think you'd have infinitely more fun with a character who pretends to be sweet and lovely who is evil behind the scenes and uses others to do what she wants rather than this magic which doesn't necessarily fit in the WoW universe.

My main Skaraa (before I transferred him here) was an antagonist in this way for a long time. He got away with so much because everyone responsible for bringing him down loved his outward persona and refused to believe right up until the end that he was secretly so very twisted. He was more chaotic good (justifying his evil deeds with a 'greater good' endgame) but the road to power through manipulation would be much the same.

I hope these ideas help you.
*Pales, slowly start so applaude* I must say, I didn't think of this before... that sounds like a fun plan xD I will probably not do it like that entirely (cause I kind of prefer to do it my own way) but I will indeed take some ideas from it.
(Edit: I won't take away the water magic. It will still be there, also... how doesn't water magic fit into WoW? I mean,if you could use shadow magic combined with water magic in some way (look frostfirebolt for example) it could work... also that shadow magic is attuned to mind magic it would be plausible, though I can see why you think it maybe don't fit)

I don't know the lore from which you are taking this black water magic business, so I don't honestly know if it fits or not. I was just going on what previous posters, who seemed to know the game universe you are talking about, have said. If you think it fits then I can't argue with you without doing far more research on this other game than I care to - if you think it's all good then fair enough. ^^

I am glad that I helped in some way, I look forward to meeting and RPing with your character once she is 'conceived'. Smile

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Tnecniw on Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:15 am

Hmm... I have created her, and I have Rped with her (some might have seen her, a pale very sad character in the pig, dressed in black gilnean robe) I decided to give her a backstory of that she was a mage but her boyfriend left her for another woman... so she tried to drown herself, just as she was in the dark water (she had jumped from a ship, give or take) she got a deal from the old gods (this is something I haven't made official yet, so if the old god thing is a little too much, please let me know) that gave her a new path and new powers in exchange for her services... she agreed. she is blessed with a really good abbility with water magic (both corrupted and non-corrupted) but her sorrow is extreme... but with her magic she can GIVE other people sorrow while in turn lowering her own... (so her magic can make other people feel the pain of her sorrow while she herself gets reived, which gives her a reason)

But I have the problem that I am not sure how to do evil things... she wants others to suffer, to experience her sorrow. (she wants to drown the world in sorrow, alot like ophelia from Brutal legend I know) but I don't really know HOW.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Izzifix on Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:01 am

Find out IC.

Don't overthink everything so much. Let it go.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Dyone on Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:38 am

Dwyburn wrote:Find out IC.

Don't overthink everything so much. Let it go.

This.. Easy as that..Great story's arent started..they are formed.

Well..maybe get a minnion..Find a person who wants to be your "slave". Who can do the dirty deeds for you and all.

What's a bad guy/girl without a always listening minion arround him/her Smile

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Allonia_Miral on Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:46 am

There is a certain person who keeps going around offering to "teach" people. Try visiting the Underground Market events and you might find something.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Rend. on Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:27 pm

Dwyburn wrote:Find out IC.

Don't overthink everything so much. Let it go.

This.

I decided on much of Rend's backstory/personality days if not weeks into RPing him. Heck, I still occasionally add/remove/change minor elements of it to this day (over a year later!)

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by erwtenpeller on Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:01 pm

Yeah I tend to do that as well. It's good to be a little flexible. Wink

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Nare on Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:55 am

Tnecniw wrote:But I have the problem that I am not sure how to do evil things... she wants others to suffer, to experience her sorrow. (she wants to drown the world in sorrow, alot like ophelia from Brutal legend I know) but I don't really know HOW.

Well you have your goals. Spreading sorrow and whatever deal your toon made with old god. See that happy couple for example? I bet they will be very sad if you make them break up one way or another.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Tnecniw on Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:58 am

Nare wrote:
Tnecniw wrote:But I have the problem that I am not sure how to do evil things... she wants others to suffer, to experience her sorrow. (she wants to drown the world in sorrow, alot like ophelia from Brutal legend I know) but I don't really know HOW.

Well you have your goals. Spreading sorrow and whatever deal your toon made with old god. See that happy couple for example? I bet they will be very sad if you make them break up one way or another.
THAT is actually quite funny. I almost did that, (managed to enslave the man and made him break up with the girl, sadly he managed to resist the magic and well, it didn't work)

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Amaryl on Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:00 am

Adry wrote:
Timna wrote:How about no. This is not true.

Timna wrote:My opinions are my own, and I wanted to say that what you said is definitely not a rulebook - but neither is mine.

Do you see why I got offended here. For future reference, opening with "NO YOU'RE WRONG" on an almost entirely subjective matter isn't going to get you anywhere.

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The moment you have to clarify that what you're saying is actually your opinion when discussing a subjective topic. Is the moment when people do not understand what subjective means.

But hey lets all get offended when people disagree with our opinions and then act bratty about it. or passive agressive or whatever, because that is the proper way to discus things.

if you don't want people to attack your opinion don't post them.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

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