Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by siegmund on Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:36 pm

Y not just use a shamananan then?

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by erwtenpeller on Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:23 pm

Because humans don't have shamans.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by The Z on Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:09 pm

By the by, you're not looking for a literal FAQ on how to play this would-be character of yours, right? I mean, creating original characters can be tons of fun, but I'd imagine most of that fun gets sucked out, if you have your whole character concept written-out for you by someone else, line by line, and you play strictly by those rules. Or at least that's my opinion.

Also, along with that "hated draenei" concept of yours, these are not your first characters to RP with, are they? Because (no offence meant) if they are, you might want to consider something a bit less outside the box for your character. Just saying, because an evil character with magic that's not originally in-game might be a bit too much to chew on, unless one has some real talent right from the start. Of course, if you have RPd for a good while already, then you can ignore that. I'm no Alliance so I wouldn't know better.

And again, 'ts just my opinion.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Tnecniw on Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:57 pm

I mostly just want tips on how to do it without breaking TOO much lore

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Ralegh on Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:30 pm

Honestly to me it seems you are to focused on finding a way to recreate the character completely, rather than just recreate the central themes of the character.
Don't get bogged down with trying to recreate a version of her powers, and rather focus on the aspects of her personallity that made you like the character.

And just quickly on Brutal Legend.
I found that game wildly dissapointing.
I really really really wanted to like it but it kept forcing the RTS aspect to much which honestly was the crappiest part of the gameplay... Atleast on console.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Adry on Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:55 pm

It's always going to be difficult to export characters into different setting logically. To this end I recommend you think of why exactly you like the character, and which of those core elements can be translated to WoW. In this case, it seems apparent she's based off the Ophelia of Shakespeare's Hamlet. Having drawn inspiration from characters of other mediums before, I recommend you learn from the first incarnation of the character (in this case, in Hamlet), for a better understanding of her personality and traits.

As for a Warcraft-friendly version of her powers, she seems very Warlock-like. Instead of drowning herself to ascertain her power, she could have sold her soul in service to the Burning Legion in return for power, metaphorically very similar to the story you wish to emulate. But it's important to note that you won't be able to live up to the same kind of indomitable power with an army at your back. Due to the constraints of the way we roleplay, you'll need to be somewhat humble. And as for the actual villaining itself, here are a few important pointers:

-Do not expect to win. Your job as a villain, in this tightly constricting setting, is to lose. There are a few exceptions, but those are the kinds of things that would take months if not years to pull off properly, and even then you can never claim an overall victory. You will still lose in the end.

-To avoid being bland and unmoving, your character will need some solid motivation for her actions. If you are simply evil with no forethought, you effectively close off all character development.

-When you lose, accept it. There are a couple of things that villain players do wrong sometimes, one of them being to point blank never accept defeat, and the other being to conveniently avoid it with some arbitrary plot device they make up on the spot. While it is fine to pull off a classy escape from the law, make sure it's properly executed and planned, else people might not like it at all.


Edited because list bbcode didn't want to work

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Bradley on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:51 am

Adry wrote:-Do not expect to win. Your job as a villain, in this tightly constricting setting, is to lose. There are a few exceptions, but those are the kinds of things that would take months if not years to pull off properly, and even then you can never claim an overall victory. You will still lose in the end.[/size]

No. Just no. Sure, she shouldn't expect to take over the world, as that's simply not possible because of game-mechanics, but 'your job as a villiain' - Fuck off and let people make their 'evil' characters without constantly being told that they have to play their role and lose, because they don't. There's a lot of ways around this.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by siegmund on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:21 am

Of course just my opinion but...

You're technically not suposed to think about winning in any situation on any kind of char. Unless you all people are so bent on the winning concept.

Usually the problem is just aproach. Going out and wanting to kidnap, kill and harm and so on for the main wanting of evil isn't going to get you far. And of course there are a lot of ways to spread sorrow and it doesn't have to be via magic or killing. Your powers shouldn't be the first thing you think about when making a char.

Simply I'll just quote Ralegh overall:

Honestly to me it seems you are to focused on finding a way to recreate the character completely, rather than just recreate the central themes of the character.
Don't get bogged down with trying to recreate a version of her powers, and rather focus on the aspects of her personallity that made you like the character.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by The Z on Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:41 am

Ralegh wrote:And just quickly on Brutal Legend.
I found that game wildly dissapointing.
I really really really wanted to like it but it kept forcing the RTS aspect to much which honestly was the crappiest part of the gameplay... Atleast on console.
Oh man, what I wouldn't have given to have it be just a regular platformer. Maybe I could forgive that if I'd be a complete metalhead because of the overall cool design the game had going for it, but since that's not the case, that crap bothered me way too much.

/offtopic

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Adry on Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:24 am

Bradley wrote:No. Just no. Sure, she shouldn't expect to take over the world, as that's simply not possible because of game-mechanics, but 'your job as a villiain' - Fuck off and let people make their 'evil' characters without constantly being told that they have to play their role and lose, because they don't. There's a lot of ways around this.

The "ways around this" are to either never accomplish your goal, or to delay your defeat. The very nature of our roleplay prevents us from having a big impact on the world. Sure, we can decimate our little player-created constructs, which are definitely a huge thing on this server, but even so your defeat is still inevitable. This isn't to say this is a bad thing, au contraire. Defeat, in my experience, is the best part of playing a villain. If you did it right, then the time of your defeat is the time to look back on the destruction you have wrought, look your captor/killer in the eye and say "You win, but at what cost?"

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Timna on Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:26 am

Adry wrote:And as for the actual villaining itself, here are a few important pointers:

-Do not expect to win. Your job as a villain, in this tightly constricting setting, is to lose. There are a few exceptions, but those are the kinds of things that would take months if not years to pull off properly, and even then you can never claim an overall victory. You will still lose in the end.

-To avoid being bland and unmoving, your character will need some solid motivation for her actions. If you are simply evil with no forethought, you effectively close off all character development.

-When you lose, accept it. There are a couple of things that villain players do wrong sometimes, one of them being to point blank never accept defeat, and the other being to conveniently avoid it with some arbitrary plot device they make up on the spot. While it is fine to pull off a classy escape from the law, make sure it's properly executed and planned, else people might not like it at all.

How about no. This is not true. You're talking through the viewpoint of single player games and movies. The most interesting roleplay I've ever had through my years on this server and many others, as well as D&D and other types of roleplay, is when the villain is in the top deck and winning. This type of mindset kills the villains desire to play and continue playing the villain, and then cue the 'we don't have any evil guys on the server' threads and chats. The -only- issue I've had so far with playing a villain and playing a good guy - is that the good guys refuse to lose. That, in my opinion, is wrong. Oh so very wrong. Just my two cents, as this statement you've made is quite infuriating.

Adry wrote:
Bradley wrote:No. Just no. Sure, she shouldn't expect to take over the world, as that's simply not possible because of game-mechanics, but 'your job as a villiain' - Fuck off and let people make their 'evil' characters without constantly being told that they have to play their role and lose, because they don't. There's a lot of ways around this.

The "ways around this" are to either never accomplish your goal, or to delay your defeat. The very nature of our roleplay prevents us from having a big impact on the world. Sure, we can decimate our little player-created constructs, which are definitely a huge thing on this server, but even so your defeat is still inevitable. This isn't to say this is a bad thing, au contraire. Defeat, in my experience, is the best part of playing a villain. If you did it right, then the time of your defeat is the time to look back on the destruction you have wrought, look your captor/killer in the eye and say "You win, but at what cost?"

The tip to a good villain in my opinion is to aim big. "I want to destroy azeroth!" sure. But you'll most likely never accomplish that END GOAL. But the goals to get to that goal? "Destroy the infidel that is messing with our plans"? Definitely. I've had one of my characters lose an arm and be a cripple for the rest of her life because, guess what, I lost. As the good guy. And the bad guy won. And it's effing amazing to roleplay.

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[A] Timna "Void"- "To let go of my past, but always remember." & "Spite grows in idle soldiers."
[A] Victoriya Torosian - "Wha'cha got there?"
[A] Ariandra Fox-Alence -  "I remember I could not leave. No shackles were as terrifying as his stare upon me at that moment, like a coyote staring at its prey."
[A] Aldaya "The Sculptor" Vindico - "Have the heart that I lost, child. Treat it and others well, as long as it beats, and even when it no longer does."

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Adry on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:04 am

Timna wrote:How about no. This is not true. You're talking through the viewpoint of single player games and movies. The most interesting roleplay I've ever had through my years on this server and many others, as well as D&D and other types of roleplay, is when the villain is in the top deck and winning. This type of mindset kills the villains desire to play and continue playing the villain, and then cue the 'we don't have any evil guys on the server' threads and chats. The -only- issue I've had so far with playing a villain and playing a good guy - is that the good guys refuse to lose. That, in my opinion, is wrong. Oh so very wrong. Just my two cents, as this statement you've made is quite infuriating.

The tip to a good villain in my opinion is to aim big. "I want to destroy azeroth!" sure. But you'll most likely never accomplish that END GOAL. But the goals to get to that goal? "Destroy the infidel that is messing with our plans"? Definitely. I've had one of my characters lose an arm and be a cripple for the rest of her life because, guess what, I lost. As the good guy. And the bad guy won. And it's effing amazing to roleplay.

Why all this hate. I never said you have to lose in every single small instance, and I had assumed people would be bright enough to ascertain that. Here, I'll make it more plain for you and others:

AS A VILLAIN YOUR JOB IS TO NOT ACCOMPLISH YOUR END GOAL

By all means, blow people up from time to time. And calm down. Here is a soothing duck:
soothing duck:
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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Thelos on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:30 am

Don't get smug when you're misunderstood, that's just about the absolute worst thing you can possibly do.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Adry on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:42 am

Thelos wrote:Don't get smug when you're misunderstood, that's just about the absolute worst thing you can possibly do.

I'm not being smug, I'm just being passive-aggressive. Maybe not so passive. Either way I'm done now.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Rae Wulfgnar on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:51 am

Adry's points are spot on. If you keep doing bad shit, then you will gain more "enemies", essentially, the "good guys".

"Good guys refuse to lose" Well no, there is simply more good guys. If your evil character murders people, then the "good guys" are going to end up "defeating" the evil guy. Evil is not subjective, it is very specific.

The only stories where the evil guy wins, is when they right their wrongs and join the side of the "goodies". If you want to argue this more deeply, then you need to create a list on what makes a "good guy" and what makes a "bad guy" as this line has seemed to of blurred.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by erwtenpeller on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:58 am

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:as this line has seemed to of blurred.
I blame game of thrones.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Rae Wulfgnar on Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:20 am

Game of thrones is not blurred. Did Joffrey survive? Did Tywin? Did Viserys? The "evil" has not survived!

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Guest on Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:37 am

^ Spoiler and way over simplified

Adry you're looking at it way too black and white, you just make every villain sound like a comic book character trying to take over the world. And how is getting passive aggressive better than being smug lol.. You'll definaitly get your point across then

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Adry on Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:53 am

perturbo wrote:^ Spoiler and way over simplified

Adry you're looking at it way too black and white, you just make every villain sound like a comic book character trying to take over the world. And how is getting passive aggressive better than being smug lol.. You'll definaitly get your point across then

I've already made all my points. Anything from then on is my effort to avoid having an aneurysm.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Guest on Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:55 am

Well we wouldn't want that now would we

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Bradley on Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:18 am

perturbo wrote:^ Spoiler and way over simplified

Adry you're looking at it way too black and white

This so much. We're not playing a game where the heroes are meant to accomplish their goals and reach a happy ending, we're telling the stories of our characters, be it 'good' or 'bad' guys. And honestly, there's very few good guys. Most of the characters are grey, which is great. Stereotypical good guys have a tendency to turn into shitty and boring characters, much more so than stereotypical bad guys.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by siegmund on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:14 am

We're not playing a game where the heroes are meant to accomplish their goals and reach a happy ending

You may want to rephrase this part better before someone comes in and says something like...

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by erwtenpeller on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:20 am

siegmund wrote:You may want to rephrase this part better before someone comes in and says something like...
...GO TEAM GOOD GUY, BOO TEAM BAD GUY!

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Timna on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:23 am

Adry wrote:
Timna wrote:How about no. This is not true. You're talking through the viewpoint of single player games and movies. The most interesting roleplay I've ever had through my years on this server and many others, as well as D&D and other types of roleplay, is when the villain is in the top deck and winning. This type of mindset kills the villains desire to play and continue playing the villain, and then cue the 'we don't have any evil guys on the server' threads and chats. The -only- issue I've had so far with playing a villain and playing a good guy - is that the good guys refuse to lose. That, in my opinion, is wrong. Oh so very wrong. Just my two cents, as this statement you've made is quite infuriating.

The tip to a good villain in my opinion is to aim big. "I want to destroy azeroth!" sure. But you'll most likely never accomplish that END GOAL. But the goals to get to that goal? "Destroy the infidel that is messing with our plans"? Definitely. I've had one of my characters lose an arm and be a cripple for the rest of her life because, guess what, I lost. As the good guy. And the bad guy won. And it's effing amazing to roleplay.

Why all this hate. I never said you have to lose in every single small instance, and I had assumed people would be bright enough to ascertain that. Here, I'll make it more plain for you and others:

AS A VILLAIN YOUR JOB IS TO NOT ACCOMPLISH YOUR END GOAL

By all means, blow people up from time to time. And calm down. Here is a soothing duck:
soothing duck:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Perhaps clarity is in order. My opinions are my own, and I wanted to say that what you said is definitely not a rulebook - but neither is mine. It's a line of preference, and if the opponent - good or bad - doesn't agree, bad things may happen. And as a villain you can easily accomplish your end goal - I have many times - it's just a matter of keeping it going. If someone's end goal is to get a house of evil people.. sure. It might be a stepping stone, but for that one moment, it's still the villain's end goal. And I agree, even if this is a game where the 'bad guy' (quotation marks, most likely a grey moral) usually loses.. say they kill someone but fixes their trail brilliantly? I just personally don't see it as the villain's responsibility to give a track to follow. Sometimes, the 'bad guy' goes free.

Might just be me now. And as I said, it's just my two cents, and if you take my opinions offensively..  scratch Can't do much about that, can I.

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[A] Timna "Void"- "To let go of my past, but always remember." & "Spite grows in idle soldiers."
[A] Victoriya Torosian - "Wha'cha got there?"
[A] Ariandra Fox-Alence -  "I remember I could not leave. No shackles were as terrifying as his stare upon me at that moment, like a coyote staring at its prey."
[A] Aldaya "The Sculptor" Vindico - "Have the heart that I lost, child. Treat it and others well, as long as it beats, and even when it no longer does."

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

Post by Skaraa on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:31 am

How are you defining stereotypical good? You mention grey characters in there; I think most characters are grey, really. The only alternatives to being morally grey (at some stage or another) is to be a lawful good zealot or a chaotic evil baddie. Everything between those extremes are grey in one respect or another.

Good characters are surely anyone who wants to end up doing what their culture deems as 'the right thing'. This includes morally grey characters.

Back on topic:

Here is an idea for you; it sounds like your concept of someone who wants to spread suffering and takes sick pleasure from other people's pain could be best applied without all this freaky water magic.
Imagine, if you will, a character who uses the emotions of others (maybe through romance) to get what she wants. Perhaps when she wants someone dead she doesn't go out and do it herself but manipulates the men wrapped around her finger to do it for her; or even hires professional assassins.

I think you'd have infinitely more fun with a character who pretends to be sweet and lovely who is evil behind the scenes and uses others to do what she wants rather than this magic which doesn't necessarily fit in the WoW universe.

My main Skaraa (before I transferred him here) was an antagonist in this way for a long time. He got away with so much because everyone responsible for bringing him down loved his outward persona and refused to believe right up until the end that he was secretly so very twisted. He was more chaotic good (justifying his evil deeds with a 'greater good' endgame) but the road to power through manipulation would be much the same.

I hope these ideas help you.

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Re: Idea for a char, but don't really know how to.

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