Mists of Pandaria

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Grufftoof on Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:52 am

Loaspeed.

Low ass peed.

Hehe.


As for the root of words used in WoW. It's a slippery slope to pointlessness. There's no use delving and saying "but this word comes from here" etc etc. Godspeed could better be Lightspeed (I like the pun). Or perhaps it is just " god's speed" therefore god's speed, and godspeed.

Or maybe they just thought it sounded ok and it made it in. Whonose.


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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:53 am

Thelos, I think the metaphorical brick wall you're hitting trying to communicate is there because you opt to put fun and competition at two different edge. You're saying that competitive people enjoy sacrificing fun to win, when the correct analogy would be that they'd be sacrificing fun if they weren't doing their best to win. You seem to live in a world where fun is the antithesis of efficiency, which is very much inconsistent with how the real world works.

Sure, efficiency might be a sacrifice of fun -to you-, but you saying that group (2) doesn't mind playing for (b) at the cost of (a) is wrong. They're not playing that way at the cost of (a). Since we're doing metaphorical math here, let me put it this way. For group (1), (a) = k/(b). For those who aren't following, that there is the formula for inverse proportionality. This means that every time you increase (a) by x amount, (b) is decreased by y amount. This is a fair and reasonable way to play the game. You don't want to deal with the stress and intensity of having to stay competitive, but you're making the assumption that the formula for fun is the same across both groups, and they just value each variable differently. For example, to group 1, (a) might be twice as valuable as (b), while to group 2, it's the other way around.

In reality, to group 2, (a) = a(b)+c. This is direct proportionality. You state that they value winning so much that they don't mind it coming at the cost of fun, but the reality of the matter is that to competitive players, it doesn -not- come at the cost of fun. It is the way they -increase- their fun. It's not -more- fun for them to adopt a less optimal playstyle, because (a) is a product of (b).

A more simplistic way of putting it, still speaking in metaphorical math here, would be that for group 1, fun(a) - winning(b) = enjoyment(c), while for group 2, the equation looks like this: a + b = c.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not assuming you think it's wrong to be competitive because competitive people don't have fun. I'm just saying that the rhetorics you use do not speak the same message as the one you're trying to deliver.

Case in point:
For group (2), adopting strategies that will bring forth (b) at the cost of (a) will provide a net game in entertainment value,
There's no cost of (a).

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Amaryl on Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:06 am

indeed Ixirar; the problem with Thelos' argument is that optimal strategy to win a game is part of the gameplay.

Its like saying; I get more entertainment value by casting Prayer of Mending over Smite

Hence people that cast Smite to win are obviously sacrificing gameplay fun.

Which makes the argument a fallacy.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Muzjhath on Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:08 am

Indeed, Amaryl and Ixi have it right on how your rethorics is faulty. For someone competetive, subverting the metagame to win IS fun.

A great example would be how a lot of scrubs when waching SC2 get angry when people "cheese" and do a very agressive allin strategy. While if it's in importan clutch games I love and aplaud it. If it doesn't work, they took a shot at something great, it failed. If it worked, they are sick nerd ballers.

Another great example would be when me and some friends play Super Smash bros. (Pretty much any game).
We play unfairly. If someone kicks us off the fields and edgeguards the map, we call out bastard and beat them. We don't go "NO FAIR LET ME BACK!"
Even when we do joke games playing characters we're not good with we play to beat each other through any possible means.
Same in Munchkin. The weakest player will be the battlefield for those closer to the win, and if someone is alone close to winning that person will get ganged up uppon.

Edit:
On the topic of language and what to use.
Personally I find fantasy worlds that use "our" names for weekdays weak and lazy. And generally avoided using them ICly opting for using the "number day of the week".
Same as I didn't say "At six oclock" but "By the sixth bell after midday."


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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by erwtenpeller on Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:08 am

Amaryl wrote:Hence people that cast Smite to win are obviously sacrificing gameplay fun.
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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Thelos on Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:24 am

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:Thelos, I think the metaphorical brick wall you're hitting trying to communicate is there because you opt to put fun and competition at two different edge.
No.

I don't.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

I see the actual actions you undertake in the videogame has having an instrinsic entertainment value.

I see things that have to do with the meta-game, like figuring out the optimal strategy with the reward of seeing said strategy get you wins as having an extrensic value - at least when related to the actions you are undertaking in the game.

One isn't 'better' than the other, or gives you more 'fun'.

One may, perhaps, be more important for one type of player than for another type of player.

The real problem here is that you are trying to read my argument as something evaluative and/or normative. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, or that one type of player is better than the other, or even that one type of player is having more fun than the other. I am just saying it's different, which was a way of explaining why I, as a certain type of player, won't be using certain strategies.

If my rhetorics are faulty, it's most likely due to the fact that I struggle to find the proper concepts to communicate what I am trying to say and that people always seem to be trying to find an argument where there isn't any to begin with.

In conclusion:

Amaryl wrote:indeed Ixirar; the problem with Thelos' argument is that optimal strategy to win a game is part of the gameplay.
No, that's not what I am saying and frankly I'm almost insulted that you would think I would ever argue something so blatantly untrue. I said that they are different types of gameplay.

You basicly invent an argument based on parts of what I write, but not all of it, and then proceed to have an argument with a strawpuppet.

As long as you're having fun, I guess.


Last edited by Thelos on Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by erwtenpeller on Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:27 am

Thelos is absolutely right.

These are well known game design principles I encounter on a daily basis in my job in the games industry.

Smile

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Thelos on Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:30 am

The problem is that people want to read my post as saying "Hah! Foolish mortals! Little do you know that in your ignorance you play your game in ways that are somehow inferior to the way I play! Bask in my wisdom!".

That's not my style. I don't say things like that.

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:
For group (2), adopting strategies that will bring forth (b) at the cost of (a) will provide a net game in entertainment value,
There's no cost of (a).
Also, I actually said this a well:

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:
In fact, winning might give them [group 2]  so much enjoyment that they will not think of the strategy as providing them less intrinsic entertanment value.
i.e there's no cost for them.

Again, if you were to properly read things in a way that is benevolent rather than malevolent, as in, assuming that what somebody is trying to say is RIGHT and VALUABLE instead of assuming what somebody says is going to be WRONG, you'll have a much better time argueing with people.

I am in complete agreement with your post, Ixiar, and you are not really making any argument against me, but rather against someone else that may not even exist.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Zaraj on Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:59 am

I'd say that there could be, but doesn't have to be, a separation between what might be, for simplicity's sake, "fun" and "winning". If we assume that winning means progressing towards a goal, then fun doesn't have to be involved. After all, if I had a choice, I'd not have pained myself through Battleground grind for the sake of PvP gear just so I could have survive long enough in the world to have -fun-. The Battleground grind was arguably devoid of fun, but involved the desire to win. You could also argue that there was no fun in winning because it merely hastened the progress, so that the grind was over. Then again, that's MMO grind mentality for you.

This shouldn't be the case with games, but so it is often with MMO, because the core gameplay isn't necessarily what entices us and incites us to carry on further.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Amaryl on Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:12 pm

Thelos wrote:
Players need to ask themselves how much of their enjoyment (enjoyment intrinsic to the gameplay; i.e the actual actions they are undertaking) they are willing to sacrifice for the 'win'.
Thelos wrote:
So, for group (1), adopting strategies that will bring forth (b) at the cost of (a) (say, adopting strategies with little to no intrinsic entertainment value, such as hiding) will bring forth a net-loss in the entertainment value of the videogame, since the ammount of statisfaction they get from winning doesn't equal out the loss of entertainment value from using a strategy with less intrinsic entertainment value.
Thelos wrote:
If my rhetorics are faulty, it's most likely due to the fact that I struggle to find the proper concepts to communicate what I am trying to say and that people always seem to be trying to find an argument where there isn't any to begin with.
Your rethoric is faulty because you dismissed Stealth as extrensic. Which its not, or the ability wouldn't exist. I'm not opposed to your opinion that those matches are boring and I'd not want to play them.

I'm saying that your assesment of the situation is wrong. Because in this situation you decided that the cost (using stealth) didn't have any intrinsic value, yet it does.

Your analogy is faulty.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:52 pm

Thelos, my post was an attempt to clean up the communication errors. Read it as a "Hey, Amaryl, this is what Thelos is trying to say."

I -did- get the -point- of your argument, and I -did- agree with it. I simply pointed out that while your conclusion was in agreement with my views, certain elements of your rhetorical approach to the subject were culprits in causing a rift in relatability where there needn't be one.

Opting to blow all your CDs in the opener vs. saving all your CDs to CC-kite-turtle all game untill Dampening kicks in has no differentiation in the intrinsic vs. extrinsic front. Both are two completely legit tactics that require roughly the same amount of planning prior to the match starting. Every single viable tactic in dealing with an arena match has the same requirement in terms of extrinsic involvement, and provide the same level of intrinsic involvement. The original case that was brought up was the thought of double rogue/rogue+DPS teams just turtling through their infinite CC and stealth/invisibility/whatever to push the game into the point where the opposing healer can no longer heal through their damage. That was the case. Not hardcore vs. "scrub". It only turned that way because some people started calling the turtle strategy an unfair tactic, which is when the "play to win" thing was linked.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:28 pm

Can I interupt my lurking to just say, you guiz will argue over anything ;_;

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Muzjhath on Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:43 pm

We don't argue over anything, we argue over everything!
Isn't that clear!?

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:39 pm

Ah I didn't get the memo

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Amaryl on Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:20 am

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:Thelos, my post was an attempt to clean up the communication errors. Read it as a "Hey, Amaryl, this is what Thelos is trying to say."

I -did- get the -point- of your argument, and I -did- agree with it. I simply pointed out that while your conclusion was in agreement with my views, certain elements of your rhetorical approach to the subject were culprits in causing a rift in relatability where there needn't be one.

Opting to blow all your CDs in the opener vs. saving all your CDs to CC-kite-turtle all game untill Dampening kicks in has no differentiation in the intrinsic vs. extrinsic front. Both are two completely legit tactics that require roughly the same amount of planning prior to the match starting. Every single viable tactic in dealing with an arena match has the same requirement in terms of extrinsic involvement, and provide the same level of intrinsic involvement. The original case that was brought up was the thought of double rogue/rogue+DPS teams just turtling through their infinite CC and stealth/invisibility/whatever to push the game into the point where the opposing healer can no longer heal through their damage. That was the case. Not hardcore vs. "scrub". It only turned that way because some people started calling the turtle strategy an unfair tactic, which is when the "play to win" thing was linked.
This is a pretty succinct description and I can't help but agree. I never disagreed with Thelos' conclusion either, just his argumentation. I'm not here to argue against taste, since that's just pointless, but projecting your taste on others, with flawed arguments, make me just argue those arguments. I like the word argue, just read how often i used that word in this paragraph. Ha, Argument.

afro 

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Coppersocket on Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:14 am

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While we don’t have an official date to share regarding the release of the updated Recruit-A-Friend (RAF) program, those whose accounts are already linked are not affected by this, and any unclaimed rewards will be redeemable once the program starts up again. You’ll also be happy to learn that the current reward will still be available when the Recruit-A-Friend program returns—in fact, players who participate in the upcoming program will have even more reward options available to them. We’ll have more details for you at a future point in time.
CC and Diminishing Return
As our senior PvP designer Brian Holinka tweeted over the weekend, we've got some pretty solid goals for the future regarding crowd control. We do think it needs to be toned back a bit, both in the amount of CC effects available and in how frequently they can be used.

That said, CC is still an integral part of World of Warcraft PvP. Dealing with it intelligently, both in choosing when to use your own CC as well as reacting to opponent CC's, does have strong gameplay value.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Coppersocket on Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:23 am

Quick update: several of you have expressed a concern about stealth teams staying hidden until late in the game, when Dampening starts to stack. This would require them to grab Shadow Sight orbs as much as possible, which would be tricky but is actually possible (particularly with mechanics like Vanish).

We're not totally sure it would be a problem, as it would require quite a bit of skill and more than a little luck to pull off, but we do see the concern and want to avoid promoting that sort of behavior. So, when the Dampening change goes in, we'll also be changing the Shadow Sight debuff to prevent the player who picks up the orb from using stealth mechanics while it's active. That will also include abilities like Vanish or Shadowmeld.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by siegmund on Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:26 am

Hm, well that should make stealth vs stealth team areans interesting (Or not). We'll see but good to know!

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Coppersocket on Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:53 am

I doubt it'll affect stealth teams really, if both insist in sitting in stealth constantly then neither can benefit from this.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Zinkle Figgins on Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:12 pm

Blizzard is continuing to connect US realms, and given the number of servers this time I think everything is working smoothly: link

Still nothing about connected EU realms unfortunatly.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:57 pm

Scenarios.

They seem to be playing a moment in the lore, without really specifying when "exactly", besides actually happening.. This means that that have already happened, let's take oh, I don't say, Arthas sacking Lordaeron City, or the fall of Caer Darrow, or among many other hundreds of events in Warcraft lore that are downright awesome can be implemented via Scenarios.


Agh.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by Cid on Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:36 pm

And this be a positive or negative post to scenarios...?

Personally I like the scenarios, they are good for smaller events and they don't need any specific specs, anything goes just like in RP. A small mountaineer patrol outside the Frostmane Ridge for example can get lost in a blizzard and have to fight the trolls etc in "Blood in the Snow".

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by siegmund on Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:12 am

Thing is scenarios seem to go with current lore small events, like dungeons (Besides i guess caverns of time dungeons). Unless it gives you like a time travel thing again i doubt Blizz would do this. Unless i guess you throw the sugestion their way.

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by The Z on Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:11 am

I'd enjoy using scenarios with Caverns of Time flavouring, like journeying with Rexxar as he did in the side-campaign of The Frozen Throne. Or a bunch of other WC3 related stuff...or hell, even WC2, if it had some. Of course you'd probably need to tie them over to current going-ons at least somehow, so it wouldn't be too much of a fan-servicing.

Anyway, this reminded me...I guess there already was a topic to discuss what you'd want to see in the next expansion? I'm trying to think if they can fit any new features into the engine anymore, but I'd guess it has started to show it's limits by now...well, except for the Dance Studio, I guess. GIVE US THE DANCE STUDIO ALREADY!1

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

Post by erwtenpeller on Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:50 am

Heroic scenarios <3

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Re: Mists of Pandaria

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