[A] War Sect

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Allonia_Miral on Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:36 am

The books are actually considered lore, especially more recent ones. And the earlier books usually summarize what has been told in other means, so also canon.

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Drustai on Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:37 am

Allandra wrote:
Before anybody shouts ‘it’s a game mechanic!’, it is not, because there were other thousands ways to create a specific warlock class quest, without stating what’s stated in the quest text. Imho, we can’t ignore in-game quests, when it comes to the lore, especially because if we do, then almost nothing of the lore remains.
Also in Tides of War warlocks of Alliance used demons to fight the Horde fleet. Ok, books are not consedered lore, but the point still stands.

Good luck with the guild. Really good concept. ^^

The books are considered canon (only the RPG books aren't). Therefore, that quote (which Dec just posted) is canon and clearly confirms that the Alliance military makes use of warlocks in an overt capacity.


_____________________________________________________
[I] Drustai the Necromancer - Outcast
[A] RADM Areyah Conover - Missing in Action
[L] Saphra Emberstone - Felsworn
[H] Atsenkha - Former Kor'kron, Red Blade Tribesorc


"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

—The Iron Law of Bureaucracy

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Allandra on Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:49 am

To be honets, I have no idea about what's lore and what's not at this point. Suspect
Twilight of the Aspects has one version of Kalecgos becoming an aspect, quest chain for legendary afaik gives us another. Theramore scenario and the book version also differ a bit from what I can remember. After feeling my mind being blown in attempt to connect all the dots I kinda gave up. Sad

The books are considered canon (only the RPG books aren't).
I remember a blue post that stated that while books are fun and create a more detailed universe, they are not really canon. Need to find it.

Anyway, what I was saying is Alliance uses warlocks openly now which makes it easier to RP if you do not want to be cultist.

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Tuomas/Decurius on Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:50 am

Drustai wrote:
Allandra wrote:
Before anybody shouts ‘it’s a game mechanic!’, it is not, because there were other thousands ways to create a specific warlock class quest, without stating what’s stated in the quest text. Imho, we can’t ignore in-game quests, when it comes to the lore, especially because if we do, then almost nothing of the lore remains.
Also in Tides of War warlocks of Alliance used demons to fight the Horde fleet. Ok, books are not consedered lore, but the point still stands.

Good luck with the guild. Really good concept. ^^

The books are considered canon (only the RPG books aren't). Therefore, that quote (which Dec just posted) is canon and clearly confirms that the Alliance military makes use of warlocks in an overt capacity.

Which was exactly the point I wanted to underline.

Theramore scenario and the book version also differ a bit from what I can remember. After feeling my mind being blown in attempt to connect all the dots I kinda gave up.
The huge difference is that Alliance side in the book there's no trace of the Scenario. No mention of 3 champions saving the once-was-blonde lady from the orcs. That aside, the rest fits in pretty well.


As for books being official lore, yes they are, From word of God Metzen himself. Must find the interview, but I know there is.

In any case, they're thrown at the player looking for the story in this US thread, so...
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1008220832

Edit: Anticipated in looking for the interview by Drustai.


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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Drustai on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:04 am

Allandra wrote:To be honets, I have no idea about what's lore and what's not at this point. Suspect
Twilight of the Aspects has one version of Kalecgos becoming an aspect, quest chain for legendary afaik gives us another. Theramore scenario and the book version also differ a bit from what I can remember. After feeling my mind being blown in attempt to connect all the dots I kinda gave up. Sad

The books are considered canon (only the RPG books aren't).
I remember a blue post that stated that while books are fun and create a more detailed universe, they are not really canon. Need to find it.

They said this about the RPG books, not the novels. The books are largely canon, except when they aren't.

"Ya, the novels are pretty much considered canon, um, the funny thing is some things are less canon, we shoot for canon...typically the characters in novels are canon..."-Chris Metzen

When the two contradict (which will happen), typically it is either the most recent source or the in-game source that will be considered canon (usually it's the most recent. Varian for example is canonically the one that defeated Onyxia, because of the comics depicting it). You can't expect them to always be perfectly in sync, but that doesn't mean that everything done in the books is non-canon.

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[I] Drustai the Necromancer - Outcast
[A] RADM Areyah Conover - Missing in Action
[L] Saphra Emberstone - Felsworn
[H] Atsenkha - Former Kor'kron, Red Blade Tribesorc


"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

—The Iron Law of Bureaucracy

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Ara on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:12 am

*Greets the assembled membership with a customary greeting followed by a solem bow*

Rejoice in the knowledge that we are the truly righteous defenders.The ignorant tome beaters who burn our "unclean souls"cleansing us of shadow's taint are wrong.
Brothers and sister if those who hunt us fall they are assured peace and eternal rest as a reward for their service....Yet we who seek to master the forbidden arts and turn them against the enemies of the Alliance ....Nay turn them against the enemies of this world.. We risk utter damnation and eternal torment .
I ask you now brothers and sisters who are the better men...
*casts a wary glance towards the other members*
<Extract from one of "The Group" speeches held at undisclosed location>

GOD I MISS THOSE DAYS


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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Allandra on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:24 am

*whines quietly that even Doctor Who canon was more straight forward and easy to understand*

Ok, thanks for the explanation. Smile

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Ara on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:32 am

It's easy... Holy / divine magic = bee's knees

Arcane.... np just don't freeze

Shadowcraft..... Frowned upon ,never discussed and illegal

Fel = Kill on sight, utter corruption demons ect

Both Shadow and fel will be used by armies / factions.Only when their backs are too the wall.Especially fel.
Even if the lock saved a village using Fel / shadow no guarentee he wouldn't be spared a grizzly death..more later after work Very Happy

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Drustai on Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:36 am

Kyrby wrote:It's easy... Holy / divine magic = bee's knees

Arcane.... np just don't freeze

Shadowcraft..... Frowned upon ,never discussed and illegal

Fel = Kill on sight, utter corruption demons ect

Both Shadow and fel will be used by armies / factions.Only when their backs are too the wall.Especially fel.
Even if the lock saved a village using Fel / shadow no guarentee he wouldn't be spared a grizzly death..more later after work Very Happy

Except that they are not kill on sight, and serve openly in the Alliance military. They are not slain for their efforts.

_____________________________________________________
[I] Drustai the Necromancer - Outcast
[A] RADM Areyah Conover - Missing in Action
[L] Saphra Emberstone - Felsworn
[H] Atsenkha - Former Kor'kron, Red Blade Tribesorc


"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

—The Iron Law of Bureaucracy

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Ara on Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:56 pm

Ehhh there's an npc lock that's praised for summoning demons and abusing fel I wanna do that quest.Locks will always be shunned ICly (except probably undead) the whole fel connection even though you may avoid it at all costs and use shadow magic / hex magics, people will fear what they don't understand.
But then that means High up mages and anarchists should know this and accept them to a degree ofc depending on the whole fel thing.
*Paladin caved noob Bob's head in for using an imp in duskwood to fight undead using the whole" I use my powers to fight for the allience "ideal.It did not end well:D*
Although people never openly accept this OOCly which sucks ,and fel is rarely well RPed
Fel magic comes from drinking demon blood is adictive and has massive side effects *points at orcs* both physically and mentally.But I can count on one hand the amount of ppl who I've seen doing this since I started.Most treat fel like the arcane(yeah I know that's addictive too)

So summoning a demon does not make you evil, nor does using shadow magics.At the very least it means you can still be chaotic good or something like that.Though walking around any allience city with a demon out is stupid IMO.
What makes locks evil is the use of Fel though I should say abuse of fel.Age old story of Darkness Vs Corruption.Once you cross into corruption though Very Happy you can have fun

So that makes locks like WMD's?
> Everyone says they are dangerous
> Most people fear / hate them
> Leaders / armies has them despite this
> Using them will saddle with warcrimes / crimes against humanity Very Happy tee hee

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Vaell on Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:33 pm

Well, I don't think Drustai made her point clear enough. Using fel or shadow magic openly in Alliance Cities or "safe zones" is illegal. They are dangerous and abusive forms of magic that are highly frowned upon by magi, not to mention feared by normal folk. If a lone Warlock is in a cave somewhere in Alliance territory "Fel'ing" it up, then they can be dispatched/arrested. However, if they are a part of the Alliance army and use it in times of war (so... any time away from home in this world!) then they're pardoned of their horrible ways!

I've yet to see a Warlock who uses this as an advantage to gloat though.

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Ara on Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:32 am

Few would though because when the war is over and certain religious orders hear of a warlock that did x,y and z during the war.Regardless of what he did then he's now going to be viewed as a lock / fel user and would be on their radar watched, hounded, harassed,spied on and likely arrested and or killed for being a fel user.

Of course any warlock worth his salt / her wouldn't reveal him/herself without it being some part of a plan or if they knew they would be safe telling said person.Lol the time I had getting an old man to prove Bob could be trusted to be his apprentice.

Even if the lock saved a village using Fel / shadow no guarentee he wouldn't be spared a grizzly death..more later after work


ofc the best part of the scene where he explains he's expenbable is left out....stupid youtube
Locks though useful will always be left out to dry if caught practicing their craft no matter how beneficial they are to the war effort.
*Always have dirt on someone important... never hurts Very Happy*

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Tuomas/Decurius on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:22 am

Kyrby wrote:Few would though because when the war is over and certain religious orders hear of a warlock that did x,y and z during the war.Regardless of what he did then he's now going to be viewed as a lock / fel user and would be on their radar watched, hounded, harassed,spied on and likely arrested and or killed for being a fel user.

Of course any warlock worth his salt / her wouldn't reveal him/herself without it being some part of a plan or if they knew they would be safe telling said person.Lol the time I had getting an old man to prove Bob could be trusted to be his apprentice.

Even if the lock saved a village using Fel / shadow no guarentee he wouldn't be spared a grizzly death..more later after work


ofc the best part of the scene where he explains he's expenbable is left out....stupid youtube
Locks though useful will always be left out to dry if caught practicing their craft no matter how beneficial they are to the war effort.
*Always have dirt on someone important... never hurts Very Happy*
To be feared, mistrusted and even hated is a thing. To be actively hounded, hunted and so on only for being a fel user, I'd say no, esepcially if said lock is an honored member of the Alliance Army. To be in the Army and fighting means, among the other things, fighting back to back, shoulder to shoulder, with many other people, people who could save your life and viceversa. The Church of the Holy Light is not the Chapter, and in general dwarven/human society(and gnomish) appears far more lenient about the use of fel/shadow magic than it could seem at first glance. De facto, these warlocks who were referenced in the quote are openly summoning demons and using fel magic. I highly doubt people, once the fleet as gone back home, would fingerpoint them and want them arrested or killed on the spot(save from zealots, perhaps). "Ya' know, that guy saved us pouring a ran of felfire on the enemy ship. Please, arrest him." Tbh, sounds ridiculous to me.

A little point on zealotry. Alliance societies, and of course way more Horde, are extremely probable very much wary of any kind of zealotry, 'cause of the Scarlet Crusade and such. Elves aside(who are aside for many things) and draenei, it's way more probably that a zealot cackling "I want all warlocks and Death Knights on a pyre!"(and actively trying so, ofc) would get arrested than the random death knight or the random warlock, known as being one 'cause he uses his powers in battle. Perhaps said zealot would get the approval of the crowd, but the zealot is, at any level, saying that the king is an idiot who should not rule, while the Dk or warlock fundamentally does nothing against the law(unless ofc uses openly their powers to kill or hurt people).

TL,DR: Crowd opinion =/= Law and its enforcement

Locks and dks won't be arrested on the spot only 'cause of what they are/do. It's way more probable a zealot who voices his/her opinion too much openly, would get arrested.

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Ara on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:37 am

? DK's we were talking about locks and ass per the power of fanatics like the chapter... They sacked Duskwood at one stage "cleansing it".Ocupied it many times hunting for cultists / locks...burnt down the old brewery.Their most vile crime ofc.
Hell one even stabbed bob in the chest for trying to stop him from burning a pick pocket.
So.. yeah fanatics have a lot of sway.
Plus.. Fel = corruption if you can actively use it you are corrupt and will or already have fallen no matter what good you do the Light will always try and kill you
Don't even mention scarlets ...ohhh god ..Minigun using OPness.I for one am glad that scarlet guild went bye bye


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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Tuomas/Decurius on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:52 am

Kyrby wrote:? DK's we were talking about locks and ass per the power of fanatics like the chapter... They sacked Duskwood at one stage "cleansing it".Ocupied it many times hunting for cultists / locks...burnt down the old brewery.Their most vile crime ofc.
Hell one even stabbed bob in the chest for trying to stop him from burning a pick pocket.
So.. yeah fanatics have a lot of sway.
Plus.. Fel = corruption if you can actively use it you are corrupt and will or already have fallen no matter what good you do the Light will always try and kill you
Don't even mention scarlets ...ohhh god ..Minigun using OPness.I for one am glad that scarlet guild went bye bye
Well, I put dks in the thing because usually zealots attack them as well as locks(and dks usually can't hide they're dks), no other reason.

The Light is a thing, and it's usually indipendent on its effects than on its 'purposes'(it's possible to heal a dk/warlock/corrupted/whatever with Light, it works, but the subject will feel excruciating pain), it's not an issue, law enforcement wise. Law enforcement is none else but the King's will enforced to the populaton. He sais DKs, locks, Argent Crusade members of Horde races are allowed and good(examples), so the guards have to enforce that rule. Not its contrary. If not, they're not guards, but vigilantes and all but lawful.

About Scarlets, was referencing the lore Scarlets, not the guild.

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Ara on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:59 am

To make it clear..again In times of war when their backs are to the wall people will use any means to defend themselves.
"Desperate times desperate measures" .
But once you use fel AKA Demon Based magics you cross the line from would be anti hero into corruption.
And there will always be those who understand the use for shadows and enslaving demons to do our factions bidding.Usually other locks or powerfull magi but look at it logically.

SW home of Paladins and Priests ect: see's cheery lock walking down the street glowing green and patting his imp
Exador Drenie home :see's cheery lock walking down the street glowing green and patting his imp
Darnassus Elfland :see's cheery lock walking down the street glowing green and patting his imp
Pretty sure here people would lynch you for being a fel using lock or atleast arrest you

Unsure about trolls ,BE's but forsaken openly embrace locks

Orcs...given their past with the legion..hmmm iffy call there given that orcs bear the stigma of fel still and probably always will

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Vaell on Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:33 am

when the war is over
The beauty of WoW is there is never a time of peace! War is consistent.

@Decurius,
If they openly use it in a public place in Alliance territory, they can be arrested and will be in our RP. The magic is extremely dangerous and unstable, as seen in the Trial of the Champion when that Gnome accidently summons a powerful demon he can't control. If Stormwind were under attack, they would allow its use, sure. But imagine it playing with deadly gas in a public area. Sure, use it in war. It is an inhumane tactic but don't bring it home!

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Tuomas/Decurius on Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:35 am

SW home of Paladins and Priests ect: see's cheery lock walking down the street glowing green and patting his imp
Exador Drenie home :see's cheery lock walking down the street glowing green and patting his imp
Darnassus Elfland :see's cheery lock walking down the street glowing green and patting his imp
Pretty sure here people would lynch you for being a fel using lock or atleast arrest you
@Decurius,
If they openly use it in a public place in Alliance territory, they can be arrested and will be in our RP. The magic is extremely dangerous and unstable, as seen in the Trial of the Champion when that Gnome accidently summons a powerful demon he can't control. If Stormwind were under attack, they would allow its use, sure. But imagine it playing with deadly gas in a public area. Sure, use it in war. It is an inhumane tactic but don't bring it home!
I answer to both in a single post: I perfectly agree that using fel magic publicly in cities would get you (probably) a mob against and an arrest. But usually warlocks don't go around with imps or worse around, out of a war context. What I point out is that, if X is a warlock, and everyone knows it because he used his arts in battle, and he's not feasibly using them out of battle, doesn't mean that once home he'd get arrested or, after war, hunted down. As said, this guy has fought back to back with other Alliance soldiers, risked his life and perhaps saved Alliance lives during the battle. It's utterly ridiculous that he'd get arrested or worse after the war(not that there is ever peace, but eh).

In short: I'm a warlock, you know it, and I don't use my powers out of battle? You can hate me, shun me, fear me, but you can't do anything, by law.

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Drustai on Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:57 am

Warlocks, shadowcasters, and death knights are not arrested simply for being warlocks, shadowcasters, and death knights. They are arrested when they break the laws regarding the use of fel and shadow magic. Those laws regard using it within civilized territory (such as Stormwind), and do not apply to using it outside those areas or when under permission by reigning authorities (such as the Mage Tower).

In lore, Varian openly orders a squad of warlocks to open fire with fel magic and demons in a naval skirmish. In lore, the Alliance assigns a death knight general, who walks around with his undead minion, to lead a major campaign for the control of Andorhal. In lore, even Dalaran permits overt warlocks and shadow users to stroll down its streets.

Most players on DB are actually far less tolerant than lore. Which is good, because it provides conflict. But ultimately the law falls on the side of the dark casters, and protects them from rampant zealotry.

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[I] Drustai the Necromancer - Outcast
[A] RADM Areyah Conover - Missing in Action
[L] Saphra Emberstone - Felsworn
[H] Atsenkha - Former Kor'kron, Red Blade Tribesorc


"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

—The Iron Law of Bureaucracy

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Ara on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:04 pm

So like we've been saying for a while now:
>Walking around with demon BAD
> Walking around shooting Fel out of your arse BAD
> Walking around shooting shadows from your eyes BAD
and doing all these will end Badly?

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by siegmund on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:38 pm

Kyrby wrote:So like we've been saying for a while now:
>Walking around with demon BAD
> Walking around shooting Fel out of your arse BAD
> Walking around shooting shadows from your eyes BAD
and doing all these will end Badly?

Doing these in cities or places bound by law, unless specifically given permision, will end badly yes.

Of course going out to fight stuff you'll need all the help you need, but you're probably not gonna try to summon/cast something
you still have too little knowledge how to control or so.

But yeah if you're a lock/dk/shadow user/etc. And abide by these laws you're also protected by then, unless you break them yourself.

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Ara on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:07 pm

Now if we could get people to RP out the consequences of fel abuse we'd be doing well too


I've heard some great excuses in my day as to why Human,Gnome and Worgen RPers baiscally live on fel and never display any side-effects.
And yes all of these and more people told me to baiscally <bleep> off when I told them why they were wrong
Top of the list is
"I metabolize fel faster so I escape the side effects" ((Some ape who walked passed our wards into our lair and wanted to join the group))
"We don't over do it" ((ofc a gnome said this after telling me he was a fel user for 50 years hmm go figure))
"My mother taught me to use fel when I was four therefore I am immune"
"I'm half Demon"
"A demon raised me and showed me how to use it without being corrupt"
" Fel is just a tool to be used it doesn't corrupt like that paladin says"
"My core radiates fel power the rest of me is normal that's why I can cast fel magic"

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by siegmund on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:43 pm

Sounds like you listed the most extreme cases, since most sound like that...

But yeh sadly you can't, but for most -i- ever saw, they were rping out the effects.

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Ara on Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:55 am

tbh.. if you realllllly want to RP an out and proud lock who won't get lynched "nearly"everywhere he or she goes.
Forsaken / Blood Elf would be your best bet.
Orcs given they were slaves to the legion would "probably" give a lock a kicking for summoning a demon in front of them.
Or laugh due to the ironic nature of the situation i dunno
Unsure about Trolls.

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Re: [A] War Sect

Post by Tuomas/Decurius on Tue May 28, 2013 4:21 am

After a long while, and various bad happenings, I’m trying to get this back in action. With a bit of luck, it could start very soon, but before I’d like to get an opinion of yours: there’s any interest, any kind of chance for this to work in the long term? (Have you any toon who could fit in?)

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Re: [A] War Sect

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