The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Drustai on Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:32 pm

Shriukan wrote:Great read. Definitely gonna use some of that stuff. I have a question though.

How do you classify/explain a druid's ability to shapeshift (and to a lesser extent, Ghost Wolf)? Physical Transmutation of one's body or something else?

Shapeshifting abilities fall under the school of transmutation. Both follow the principles of transmutation... that is, altering the cosmic design to match the desired shape and thus transmuting into it. Exactly how they do it is not directly explained, though one can assume that druids attune themselves to particular animal spirits (hence why they called themselves druids of the claw, druids of the fang, etc, because they dedicated themselves to attuning to that animal spirit), whereas shamans call upon the spirits of wolves (I assume) and request of them to take their shape.

In both druids and shamans, it is transmutation, but it is handled 'indirectly' through their faith/communing with spirits, whereas mages transmute things through direct methods (incantations, gestures, reagents, etc. Forcefully altering the pattern themselves).

_____________________________________________________
[I] Drustai the Necromancer - Outcast
[A] RADM Areyah Conover - Missing in Action
[L] Saphra Emberstone - Felsworn
[H] Atsenkha - Former Kor'kron, Red Blade Tribesorc


"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

—The Iron Law of Bureaucracy

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Dréfurion on Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:01 pm

At one point in time we even had to do quests to get to shifting in to bear form through getting the blessing from a bear spirit.

I've always treated shapeshifting like that; the gifts of an animal spirit, granted if they deem you worthy, then interred as being part of your being. I am not really sure if I would call shapeshifting "indirect" at the point of it being interred..

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Drustai on Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:30 pm

Drefurion wrote:At one point in time we even had to do quests to get to shifting in to bear form through getting the blessing from a bear spirit.

I've always treated shapeshifting like that; the gifts of an animal spirit, granted if they deem you worthy, then interred as being part of your being. I am not really sure if I would call shapeshifting "indirect" at the point of it being interred..

It's indirect in that it's not you directly causing the transformation so far as it is the result of attuning yourself to a spirit. The spirit is the cause of the transformation, not your own immediate actions. You don't learn the cosmic patterns nor shape mana into those patterns to trigger the effect. You draw upon the spiritual connection(s) you have established, allowing it to guide you into the transformation.

_____________________________________________________
[I] Drustai the Necromancer - Outcast
[A] RADM Areyah Conover - Missing in Action
[L] Saphra Emberstone - Felsworn
[H] Atsenkha - Former Kor'kron, Red Blade Tribesorc


"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

—The Iron Law of Bureaucracy

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Aweng on Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:01 am

Another great guide, Dru!

*requests permission to post on guild site in our Lore/Guides section*

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Dréfurion on Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:13 am

Drustai wrote:
Drefurion wrote:At one point in time we even had to do quests to get to shifting in to bear form through getting the blessing from a bear spirit.

I've always treated shapeshifting like that; the gifts of an animal spirit, granted if they deem you worthy, then interred as being part of your being. I am not really sure if I would call shapeshifting "indirect" at the point of it being interred..

It's indirect in that it's not you directly causing the transformation so far as it is the result of attuning yourself to a spirit. The spirit is the cause of the transformation, not your own immediate actions. You don't learn the cosmic patterns nor shape mana into those patterns to trigger the effect. You draw upon the spiritual connection(s) you have established, allowing it to guide you into the transformation.

Hmm still not agreeing fully, but this is not the place to go in to a druid-discussion Razz

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Drustai on Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:13 am

Hage/Bane/Calithildes wrote:Another great guide, Dru!

*requests permission to post on guild site in our Lore/Guides section*

Go ahead.

Drefurion wrote:
Drustai wrote:
Drefurion wrote:At one point in time we even had to do quests to get to shifting in to bear form through getting the blessing from a bear spirit.

I've always treated shapeshifting like that; the gifts of an animal spirit, granted if they deem you worthy, then interred as being part of your being. I am not really sure if I would call shapeshifting "indirect" at the point of it being interred..

It's indirect in that it's not you directly causing the transformation so far as it is the result of attuning yourself to a spirit. The spirit is the cause of the transformation, not your own immediate actions. You don't learn the cosmic patterns nor shape mana into those patterns to trigger the effect. You draw upon the spiritual connection(s) you have established, allowing it to guide you into the transformation.

Hmm still not agreeing fully, but this is not the place to go in to a druid-discussion Razz

"A druid of the claw is class of druid. They were invaluable during the Third War. Their totem is the bear, and they use the bear's strength and resilience to ravage their enemies in close combat. Perhaps more than any other druid, Druids of the claw focus on combat prowess, preferring raw strength and staying power to stealth and subtlety.

Druids of the claw take on the form of bears and wander the wilderness on a never-ending pilgrimage dedicated to the ursine Eternals. Though the destruction of the ancient Kaldorei homeland destroyed much of the land traveled by the twins, those who worship them have never given up their search for any of Ursoc’s "alewells" and Ursol’s carvings that may have survived to the present day.
"

"Druids of the talon are a class of druid. While they did not have as big an impact on the Third War as the druids of the claw, the druids of the talon were a valuable addition to the forces of the night elves and, later, the Alliance. They take as their totem the storm crow, and by extension, ravens, hawks, and other birds of prey."

"Traditionally, druids chose the path of a specific animal totem, becoming either druids of the claw or druids of the talon. Indeed, legends suggest that there were even more orders of druid than these two. After the Legion's invasion, the druids began to use the powers of all forms, combining their strengths against their enemies and becoming the druids of the wild."

WarCraft III, Alliance Player's Guide, and Shadows & Light all point to dedicating themselves to a specific type of animal (or, as of late, to multiple). Or rather, they dedicate themselves to the Ancient of that animal. That devotion is what allows them to transform. This is why it is faith-based magic. The spirits themselves might not necessarily directly empower the transformation, but the druid's devotion to them allows them to do such. That's why it's divine magic instead of arcane.

Also, as you can see, yet another example of how druids and shamans are incredibly similar. Big difference here being that druid totems are of specific animal spirits, whereas shaman totems are typically of elemental spirits.


Last edited by Drustai on Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total

_____________________________________________________
[I] Drustai the Necromancer - Outcast
[A] RADM Areyah Conover - Missing in Action
[L] Saphra Emberstone - Felsworn
[H] Atsenkha - Former Kor'kron, Red Blade Tribesorc


"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

—The Iron Law of Bureaucracy

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Dréfurion on Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:39 am

I agree with all that Drubee! Druids use divine magic, it was more the wording. How you worded it here above is more to what I believe is true. Smile

At any rate here's more evidence to it being "indirect", it was even in WoW in that quest I mentioned:

The bear spirit looks upon you with a calm and peaceful gaze, You hear a voice speak to you as though it was coming from the bear, but the creature makes no indication that it is speaking.
"Greetings, my young friend. If you have come to me seeking guidance, then perhaps I can help you find what you seek."

What do you represent, spirit?

I represent the strength which bolsters you as a young druid. You have come to me to learn this strength, young one, and I will teach this to you. I will teach you all that is the spirit bear, provided you will listen and understand.
In order to know what it means to draw upon my spirit, you need to understand the importance of the strength of the body, as well as the strength of the heart.

I seek to understand the importance of strength of the body.

Strength of the body is the power and swiftness of action. You must keep yourself fit at all times, both physically and mentally. The bear's girth highlights its strength, as it is a ferocious foe in combat. The bear's girth, however, belies its lithe agility and sharp mind. These are surprises you will use to your advantage.
You must rely on the strength of the bear's body in order to master the way of the claw.

I seek to understand the importance of strength of the heart.

Strength of the heart is what gives you the resolve to take action... action that is rooted in intents that are pure and forthright. To keep the balance is not to be complacent or banal.
You must show resolve for that which you believe in, and you must be willing to fight for it. The mother bear shows endless conviction in protecting her young, as does an elder bear protecting his den. It is this resolve, this strength of heart, which you must come to know if you are to master the way of the Claw.

I have heard your words, Great Bear Spirit, and I understand. Give me now your blessings to fully learn the way of the Claw.

It remains to be seen if you are ready, young one. Even the wisest and oldest of druids are never truly ready when their ultimate time of testing comes.
You have heard my words, and now you must move on. Heed what I have taught you. There will be a time when you will have your strength tested. You must face your foe as the bear would - with strength of body and with strength of heart. Learn from the fight, young one. Go... with my blessings.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Drustai on Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:46 am

Okay, so we're on the same page then, just getting confused by wording. Point is that, yes! Druids devote themselves to the animal spirit which is what guides and/or empowers their transformations.

I say 'and/or', because it's a bit inconsistent there.

According to that quest you quoted, specifically the line you bolded, you draw upon the spirit, yup.

However, WoWRPG specifically states this:

"Adherents from these races do not receive their power directly from the Ancients they worship; their faith allows them to tap into an inner spark, focus divine energy and cast spells."

In that, it is the faith itself that causes the transformation, not anything drawn from the spirits/Ancients. However, since the source books are technically not canon anymore, the in-game quote you provide would have more weight and thus be the more accurate answer.

Regardless, it is transmutation magic, just done through faith/spiritual empowerment rather than through direct manipulation of magical patterns as mages do.

_____________________________________________________
[I] Drustai the Necromancer - Outcast
[A] RADM Areyah Conover - Missing in Action
[L] Saphra Emberstone - Felsworn
[H] Atsenkha - Former Kor'kron, Red Blade Tribesorc


"...in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself... In all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions."

—The Iron Law of Bureaucracy

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Exigua on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:02 am

Since it's clear that Druids use spirits, at least partly, I wonder what the difference is with the Spirit Realm? It is something that we have discussed lately in our guild, and it interests me quite a bit.

It's particularly, if I recall the quest correctly, that troll druids (darkspear quest) draw upon the power of many loa to get their power. But they are still considered to be druids by the Cenarion Circle, while Loa are supposedly of shadow and of the Spirit Realm. I have a theory myself, but I'll hold it back for now.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Dréfurion on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:23 am

Exigua wrote:Since it's clear that Druids use spirits, at least partly, I wonder what the difference is with the Spirit Realm? It is something that we have discussed lately in our guild, and it interests me quite a bit.

It's particularly, if I recall the quest correctly, that troll druids (darkspear quest) draw upon the power of many loa to get their power. But they are still considered to be druids by the Cenarion Circle, while Loa are supposedly of shadow and of the Spirit Realm. I have a theory myself, but I'll hold it back for now.

The diffrence between the Spirit Realm and what exactly? o.o

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by erwtenpeller on Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:32 am

Exigua wrote:It's particularly, if I recall the quest correctly, that troll druids (darkspear quest) draw upon the power of many loa to get their power. But they are still considered to be druids by the Cenarion Circle.
The circle lets them in because they are so precious, and the big druids feel bad for them. "D'aww look at that colorful little guy totally being a bear and stuff! Can we keep it?"

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Exigua on Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:41 am

Drefurion wrote:
Exigua wrote:Since it's clear that Druids use spirits, at least partly, I wonder what the difference is with the Spirit Realm? It is something that we have discussed lately in our guild, and it interests me quite a bit.

It's particularly, if I recall the quest correctly, that troll druids (darkspear quest) draw upon the power of many loa to get their power. But they are still considered to be druids by the Cenarion Circle, while Loa are supposedly of shadow and of the Spirit Realm. I have a theory myself, but I'll hold it back for now.

The diffrence between the Spirit Realm and what exactly? o.o

The Emerald Dream.

erwtenpeller wrote:
Exigua wrote:It's particularly, if I recall the quest correctly, that troll druids (darkspear quest) draw upon the power of many loa to get their power. But they are still considered to be druids by the Cenarion Circle.
The circle lets them in because they are so precious, and the big druids feel bad for them. "D'aww look at that colorful little guy totally being a bear and stuff! Can we keep it?"

That would make most sense with known lore as far as I'm concerned... However I hope there is another explanation. Hopefully mine Wink

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by erwtenpeller on Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:52 am

...I was kind of joking. Mostly.

It's kind of how Goblins get to be shamans; instead of befriending and respecting elemental spirits, they barter with them and force their will on them. This is of course a gross generalization. It is perfectly feasible there's "proper" troll druids and goblin shamans out there.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Exigua on Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:45 am

erwtenpeller wrote:...I was kind of joking. Mostly.

It's kind of how Goblins get to be shamans; instead of befriending and respecting elemental spirits, they barter with them and force their will on them. This is of course a gross generalization. It is perfectly feasible there's "proper" troll druids and goblin shamans out there.

Yes, ofcourse... But how does the loa druids work, as that seem to be the official explanation of the lore behind them, that's my question. To me, it looks as if it doesn't add up. Loa is of the Spirit Realm, which is about shadows, while Classical druids are of the Emerald Dream, which is about nature. Yet the Cenarion Circle druids accept the Loa druids like brothers and sisters, why?

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Dréfurion on Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:48 am

I can't really give you a quick and easy answer as to what the diffrence is, they are however, diffrent.

Rolled a druid to quickly see what the Troll druid lore is. Darkspear Tribe Druids have a deep connection with the Emerald Dream and all of nature, like all other druids, the Loa Gonk taught them. With other Loa (reluctantly) allowing the druids to use their forms.

Trolls druids actually seemed to have joined the Cenarion Circle as a backup plan, should the Loa not want to lend them their aid anymore. Perhaps meaning to get in contact with the ancient spirits of the Circle?

... Personally I believe the diffrence between a Loa and an Ancient are somewhat vague. Especialy because alot of diffrent things can be called a Loa. To me it would just seem reasonable some of the Loa are beings 'of the Emerald Dream' (perhaps of the Spirit Realm at the same time, no reason that's impossible).

I actually want to know what you're hinting at, so we can dicuss it.. But perhaps we should make our own thread for that?

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by erwtenpeller on Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:52 am

One could even theorize the element dream and the spirit realm to be the same plane of existence, seen through different cultural interpretations.

Something that is already common in WoW lore. Many cultures having a different interpretation of the light and where it's coming from, etc.

I'm just talking out of my ass here though. I have no idea if any of that is "canon" or whatever.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Exigua on Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:55 am

Let's make a new thread!

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Aladras on Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:57 pm

Are 'the light' and 'holy magic' two different things completely?

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Exigua on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:35 am

I had a small discussion about that the other week too. It was on the topic if a troll priest would heal an undead, would it burn the same as if a follower of the Holy Light would?

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by erwtenpeller on Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:36 am

Yes. In whichever way the light is channeled, be it through faith or other means, the energy is still "light magic" and has the same general effects.

Also, there is apparently a conveniently places plothole-Loa that totally gives you light powers.

Introducing: Lokou!

Technically not-canon due to the RPG books, but still the most convenient excuse available for a Troll priest to be tossing the light about. Though there's always the "I found the light and it is awesome" way.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Exigua on Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:32 am

erwtenpeller wrote:Yes. In whichever way the light is channeled, be it through faith or other means, the energy is still "light magic" and has the same general effects.

Do you have any source on this? Lokou is known to me from my time in the SGE. I would however argue that if you do not know for certain, it's better to assume they may not be the same, and thus differ in certain characteristics. Better safe then sorry Wink

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by erwtenpeller on Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:35 am

Better safe then sorry is to assume they are the same and have the same characteristics. Light energy is light energy, let's not make things more difficult then it has to be.

That does not mean it has to be affiliated with the Church of the Holy Light, the Way of the Naaru, the followers of An'she or any other incarnation of light-based faith.

The energy is the same; that does not mean any of the cultural constructs surrounding it's use have to be.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by itsy on Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:37 am

In the new book, the Arcane is actually referred to as the 6th element. Also, mages and I -think- warlocks cast healing spells, and apparently how water elementals work has been retconned - they're now actual water elementals enslaved rather than just constructs.

And apparently mage spells like fireball actually enslave some sort of elemental spirits too. Thrall has a fireball thrown at him and manages to convince it to peacefully disperse, though the entity within is described as "tortured."

What I really don't get is how elsewhere in the book Mage magic as referred to as being like maths. Blue dragons, apparently, think of spellcraft in terms of calculations and equations. So I guess magic is like maths except when it isn't and it's like shamanism instead >->

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by erwtenpeller on Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:11 am

A wizard did it.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Skarain on Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:30 am

In the new book, the Arcane is actually referred to as the 6th element.
Arcane is said to be the 6th element because it doesn't go for an element itself. It is energy, and that theory in this guide is one way of explaining "What is this energy made of?". To make an example, Water is made of one oxygen and two hydrogen atoms connected by covalent bonds. If the elements are connected on (elemental? not atomical) stage, it -could- form what we call the Arcane.
Arcane magic is said to spread life (or energy, think it like a sun from beneath the ground) across Azeroth through the Ley Lines. When two ley lines cross they form a -natural- reaction, creating a Rune pattern. It is natural that Northren is cold, but that is because of the Ley Lines beneath it defines it to be cold. Same with Desert. Sholazar basin and Ungoro are also examples of magic used to bloom life.

Arcane is energy, but impossible to say to belong -to- an element, thus the 6th element. (that though confirms that Shadow is not an element, if Arcane is the sixth. Four first are air, water, earth, fire. Fifth is "Life", spirit of the wilds. The spirits of everything that is, human, orc, beast...flower? - from the Lord of the Clans book.

The difference between a Shaman and a Mage is: A Mage mold the energy to un-natural strips and shapes. (this, breaking the natural balance of the world is also what causes Arcane Corruption).

Also, mages and I -think- warlocks cast healing spells
Nothing bad with it. Healing spells would fall under the school of Necromancy (manipulating the life-force) or Transmutations (the school that changes things). As a Transmuter you could, for example, turn time backwards -in- the wound. The new mage spells coming on next patch also "heal" by reversing time, going it backwards.

Why Mages and Warlocks would not be primary healers is... it is so much more complicated and falling under schools that are forbidden or -very- complicated to use (chronomancy). Transmute the element to one physical object for healing (Healthstone) is count as Necromancy, even while it does not involve killing anything. Drain life is a mean of "healing", you just transfer the health from one to another.
Now, you -can- heal by reversing the time, but now stop: "think" about what you are doing. You are REVERSING THE TIME! This -can't- be easy. Chronomantic spells are insanely complicated. Just look the ingame Spellbook for mages. Time Warp is one of the last spells in a mages spellbook. While a mage or warlock -can- heal it requires use of a forbidden school of magic, or very high-level magic. It is simply easier to find a priest or any other healer.

they're now actual water elementals enslaved rather than just constructs.
Well, Conjuration is also the school of summoning. You could summon forth an elemental from the Elemental plane of Water and enslave it. While you possibly -can- create a Water-elemental out from nothing it would be... like running around a house and using the backdoor to get inside instead of walking from the main door. It can be done but...why the bother?

And apparently mage spells like fireball actually enslave some sort of elemental spirits too. Thrall has a fireball thrown at him and manages to convince it to peacefully disperse, though the entity within is described as "tortured."

Mage: A mage evocates the existing element of fire (heat in the air, surroundings) and gathers it into one spot. They mold the un-natural heat to a ball of infertal heat and kinetic energy before hurling it forward, the spell they weaved keeping it together. A Mage forces the element to bend to his/her will.

Shaman: A shaman gently asks the Element of fire (the -same- heat in the surroundings, in the air) to come to his aid. He asks it to form a sort of flying projectile and the elemental answers, if the shaman can offer something for it in turn. A Shaman asks the element to come to their aid.

And lastly.. Yes, magic is like math. Careful calculations are what form your spells. A spell is prone to fail if you wave your finger even a slight bit in the wrong way. Also, big spells require you to draw large circles to the ground, measure carefully the reagents and go though all kinds of preparations that could take Days! If you would not, your spell would either not work, or you'd get a nice explosion of Arcane energy into your face. The reason why mages carry a spellbook is because they need to look those patterns. They -must- check their notes or they may fail with their spells.

Also.... I want that book, now!


_____________________________________________________
(A) Skarain - Skarain Feirand: Outlawed Worgen Arcanist, Magi of the Underworld and Speaker of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
(H) Nakris -  Nakris Sin'voth: Captain of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Also known as Mahruon, Halisi, Reljen, Senrar, Inran, Flickÿ and Grimfeather

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"Roleplaying....is beautiful. And it may take your heart and soul. Entirely..."

Skarain

Posts : 2583
Join date : 2011-08-04
Age : 23
Location : Finland

Character sheet
Name: Skarain Feirand
Title: Mother of the Flame

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

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