The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by erwtenpeller on Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:12 am

Because anti-climactic rubbish is just "your thing"?

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Vaell on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:06 am

erwtenpeller wrote:Because anti-climactic rubbish is just "your thing"?
No, I'm beyond caring about characters in WoW. If they killed off all the big loved ones in one silly explosion, I'd roll my eyes but I wouldn't bat an eyelid. It's Blizzard's thing.

- Lich King Ending
- Death Wing Ending
- MoP Ending (lets face it, it will not be great)
- Diablo 3 Ending
- Starcraft 2 Ending
- Starcraft 2 HotS Ending
Then if you go into the smaller stories in the WoWverse, it's always the last act that fizzles out. Don't get me wrong, there are a few great stories but the fact that you have to highlight that is bad enough. I honestly believe I could writer better endings to all of those games/moments.
... They have a lot in common with Bethesda's Elder Scrolls series. Great world but single narratives begin exciting but end in sighs.

EDIT: I was half concentrating when I typed this as I was on the phone but to summarise; the lore is a bit too jumbled to immerse me as a whole now, so I'd prefer it if they go down the Saints Row 3 route and do something ridiculous that I can laugh at, instead of get frustrated over. And I'm a scrooge now, so I enjoy ruined stories Twisted Evil 

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by erwtenpeller on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:26 am

Vaell wrote:I honestly believe I could writer better endings to all of those games/moments.
Rolling Eyes

Oh Vaell, you so silly.


Last edited by erwtenpeller on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Thelos on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:26 am

What was wrong with the Heart of the Swarm ending?

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Vaell on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:28 am

Thelos wrote:What was wrong with the Heart of the Swarm ending?
Wrong topic but...

Spoiler:
Predictable piece of crap. You knew the ending from moment one, but you sit there thinking "Well, maybe they'll change it up a bit. Give a bit of unique quality to their writing. No. We'll just kill the big baddie and then go "The other big baddie who we have always been ambigious about is waiting for you now. Yay!" I've literally said to friends that haven't played it, "Guess the ending." - they'll sit there trying to come up with something clever to which I interject - "No, think of the most basic thing that could happen." ... "You... kill Mengsk on the capital planet?"... Bingo!

Sorry for derailing, Dru... This is relevant to magic somehow...

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Tuomas/Decurius on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:06 am

It's gonna be a huge Off Topic but...

- Lich King Ending
Considering how much it was built during the whole questing experience and not only, I simply can't really see a different way to end that story. Consider I'm not a WCIII lover, though. The ending was fitting the storyline and the villain. If feels epic, it feels 'right'. Bolvar becoming the new Lich King fits the character, and let's be honest, only with supernatural help(considering wow's context) a villain like Arthas could have been taken care of. We could argue that putting Bolvar in a shelf for the time being was a huge blow to Alliance, and thus made the whole Blizzard Horde bias more evident as the next expack and stories came on, but that's nothing to do with the story itself.
- Death Wing Ending
Well......
...
...
Thrall. The issue was actually bigger there. Cataclysm felt disjointed as best, and the subsequent patches didn't really help to build up the whole hype in killing Deathwing, nor the actual need of Thrall. Rationally, we of course needed the help of the Aspects, and perhaps even the help of a substiitute for Neltharion, but that's it. For Alliance players, Thrall felt unneeded at best, and a bad offense at worst from Blizzard, especially since in all the new zones Alliance 'loses' against a full war bent Horde, with the exception of Swamp of Sorrows(and perhaps Felwood, but the focus wasn't it at all). The raid itself feels epic(if not done once a week for months): we're saving the world. But the whole story behind it, though built in 3 nice dungeons(I miss them a lot in my daily gaming experience, but it's rose glasses here) feels like a huge deus ex machina, narratively speaking. Deathwing story could have been so much more, and was one of the hugest waste narratively speaking I've ever seen.
- MoP Ending (lets face it, it will not be great)
I want to see it before judging, but my impression is that indeed will feel epic, but the story in MoP was handled(I'd say -again-) badly. Better than Cata(wasn't hard at all), but much depends on how the raid will be introduced, and the various protagonists put in in the story.
Imho, Blizzard should stop thinking about how to handle things in the game keeping the game mechanics, the factional balance or even just running for more levels and skills, and start working more on their stories and how to show them in game. Wow lore is great, and it's huge potential for great stories. Give them priority, instead of giving it to issues that have nothing to do with the story itself and its immersivity.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Lexgrad on Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:29 pm

Arthas should have been killed by Mograine.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Jeanpierre on Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:45 am

I'd like to highlight a slightly tangent aspect of this topic. Throughout the article you mention the nature of the Light, or any divine power for that matter, and how it works. A few notions spurred me to reply here.

Priests and paladins who see themselves as masters of their faith, who use their powers as a tool for their own benefit, are sacrilegious at best
...
One does not ‘learn’ to ‘use’ holy magic. They instead have faith in their deity to guide and protect them, and the deity responds in whatever manner the deity sees fit.
...
It is divine, and thus can do anything as long as the caster has enough faith in the power of their deity.
...
The power is never in the hands of the user, no matter how much they might think otherwise.
I agree to an extent, but there are a few notes I'd like to make.

Progression in the ways of the Light does exist
How does one bless with the strength of the Light? One calls to the Light.
How does one heal a wound with the Light? One calls to the Light.
How does one exorcise a dark entity with the Light? One calls to the Light.
How does one resurrect a fallen soldier with Light? One calls to the Light.
How does one regrow a lost head with the Light? One calls to the Light.

And yet each action is different. One action might be more difficult than the other. Rituals may be required. Symbols may be required. Training can be needed. One must "learn" the ways of the Light.
Why else would Anduin be tutored by Velen? Why did Uther write a book on how to swing the Light?

Because there is progression and training in its ways. Unlike arcane magic, where one learns to become an engineer of arcane powers, teachings in the ways of the Light are of a spiritual nature.
How does one measure such progress? Through rituals or tests of faith. Through tests that demonstrate that the Light chooses this supplicant to serve its purpose. It is a proof that one is ready to serve the Light/faith and be its channel.
At the same time, seeing one's faith in the Light confirmed by an answer of the Light will strengthen one's faith in that power.

The only thing that "changed" is the man or woman of faith.

Training the mind
As a Priest, I felt training was needed in techniques of the mind. These are little more than extended forms of mediation. Medidation is a skill that can be trained, and in a world where spiritual strength can manifest itself, it isn't inconcievable that there might be tangible consequences to such methods.

At the very least it helps the supplicant. How does one clear their mind from all Human thoughts, so it is focused on Light's purpose and only that purpose? Freeing oneself from the cloud of the outer world isn't enough to see Light's path. One must clear the mind from its own doubts and any divertion that is part of one's nature.

As one communes with the Light (which is their own faith, basically), such meditation can lean to a reply from the Light.

Spiritual aids
Rituals, symbols and training can be needed, not just to measure progression. These do not serve to "construct" a power. Instead they can do two things:
- facilitate the communication with the power that is called upon. For example, I would let Jean-Pierre draw a ward on the ground and call on the Light to ward whatever lies in the ward from the Shadow or outside interference. The ward permits Pierre to define exactly where the blessing is required and for how long (until the ward is undone). It is just another language, as a replacement for a "silent" call to the Light or the use of words in a prayer
- it helps the "caster" or the target, either as a way to help them clear their mind or as a way to raffirm their faith.

Why would a Priest renew his vows to the Light before battle? Why would some people stare at a candle to help them medidate? The caster isn't building a way to channel the power, but to prepare themselves to call upon the Light.

For that very reason, one might wear a robe adorned with a million religious symbols, doing a little ritual whenever putting on these clothes. They turn themselves into a symbol of their faith, for themselves and for others.
For that very same reason, one might choose to bear the plainest of robes and discard any symbol of personality: they reduce themselves, sacrificing their being and identity, so that only their faith and conviction remain.
In essence, they are both doing the same thing in opposite ways.

Supportive Techniques
Lastly.. You mentioned that the power is never in the hands of the caster. And that's a good way to look at it, but that doesn't mean there's "nothing one can do about it". For certain rituals, Priests may have to offer themselves fully to the Light. This might come with excrutiating pain, self-sacrifice or fatigue. For this reason, Priests may train themselves on withstanding such trials. Not just to build resistance, but to prepare themselves emotionally and spiritually so they can step into this ritual with conviction and a prepared willingness to undergo such a trial in the name of their divine power. They offer themselves, not with blissed ignorance of the cost, but with well founded knowledge of what trial might await them if they do.

It all boils down to the spiritual nature of things and how the individual needs to live/experience their faith to reinforce it.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Eldiros on Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:31 am

This is very well written and very informative. Excellent work! This actually fills in the many questiions I had and might still have on the magic lore in the rp Very Happy

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by erwtenpeller on Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:01 am

Just keep in mind that while it is backed up by lore sources on many of it's point, it's still a fan generated resource.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by siegmund on Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:31 pm

Rather continue something here, as it's more related even to magic.

Adry wrote:
Siegmund wrote:Necromancy isn't fel D'ohoh silly lilly.

Do you have any quote or lore reference to say it isn't? Even though we know fel users use soul shards, and Gul'dan as the first necromancer practiced fel energies?

Siegmund wrote:Hell is a thing in Wow least a word people use, deal with it. If it was retconned i'd not have Hellfire on my spell list. Or other things for that matter.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I'm sorry, an official Blizzard retcon isn't real enough for you? The word is used, yes, but the idea of hell as a place of eternal suffering is subject to retcon, along with my earlier quote from Day of the Dragon.

erwtenpeller wrote:Was it really necessary to explode this discussion in the poor guy's registry thread?

Whoops. I'll stop now.

A) First let's look at what some key things.

Necromancy is a school of the arcane read the title of the book. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Gul'dan was the first WARLOCK not necromancer, but warlocks obviously use shadow magic and necromatic spells alongside demons and fel magic. Here is a link about necromancers: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Not gonna link the text there is a lot but here are some main points:

The origins of necromancy date back to the First War when Gul'dan's necrolytes developed the ability to raise corpses to serve as skeleton warriors in the Horde. But necromancers have been around since the beginning of the Nathrezim race, who were the first ever known beings to raise Undead from Night Elven corpses.

Next know Fel and Shadow are not the same. There is no indication of demon blood needed for necromatic spells, but you see a lot of arcane, shadow and it's other word is death magic not demon magic. Now you're gonna say well demons invented it?

Let's look at what happens if you use necromancy too much:

they gradually take on the characteristics of the dead — hollow eyes, shambling gaits, pallid and sunken skin, foul odors and so forth.

No horns or whatnot far as using Fel magic goes. Souls can be a reagent used to summon demons, that's why warlocks users have soul shards.

We all know warlocks use shadow magic, not just evocation even life draining and so which does fall under necromatic arcane yeah far as the school goes but they do not raise undead. Affliction warlocks come close, but they are warlocks they use demons rather then ghouls and so forth.

I don't see Death knights flinging fel around. Warlocks use a variety of magic besides whatever they were originaly, but far as the class goes they use blood magic as well as rituals go and so on, or sacrificing their own life force and whatnot but that's not related to demonic magic.

B) Far as hell is concerned it's still a word used ingame and here:

A paladin had indicated to Rhonin that he believed that, after death, the mage's soul would condemned to the same pit of darknes shared by the mythical demons of old. This no matter how pure Rhonin's soul might have been otherwise."DotD 19...a damned soul...devilish kind... --Written in Day of the Dragon

It is natural to assume that this was retconned along with the other references to Hell.

So you're basically saying it was retconned that the paladin belived that? That's what i ment. Hell might not exist but people can still think it does and you can't retcon -that- people still use hell and say hell and whatever but yes we know demons come from the twisting nether. But hell is still a word used.

The word is used, yes, but the idea of hell as a place of eternal suffering is subject to retcon, along with my earlier quote from Day of the Dragon.

Read what you quote better. I'm not saying Hell exists i'm saying people use the word you basically said as if the whole thing is retconned even the paladin mentioning it.

Edit: Also for added link [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Eldiros on Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:23 am

Bringing the war that started on my post to plague the rest of the World.  silent 

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Vaell on Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:43 am

Eldiros wrote:Bringing the war that started on my post to plague the rest of the World.  silent 
Like the Kirin Tor, you were not given permission to contain it Sad

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Skarain on Tue May 06, 2014 8:16 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Micky Neilson @MickyNeilson: Can you describe the difference between teleportation and portal creation?

CDev Response: Good question, Mr. New York Times Bestselling Author! In the Warcraft universe, there is an instability, and those skilled in arcane magic have learned how to exploit that instability. A comical example of this can be seen via the polymorph spell, which allows magi to turn the most bloodthirsty of foes into harmless creatures, when the spellcasters put their minds to the task.

In the case of teleportation and portal creation, magi apply their knowledge of the arcane to bend the very fabric of reality so that the distance between two points is nonexistent. I could dedicate entire tomes to explaining the process in detail, but I'll just put it this way: portal creation is an external effort to eliminate the distance between two points, whereas teleportation is an internal effort that transforms the mage into the portal itself.

It is important to note that fledgling magi are routinely cautioned against teleporting and creating portals in rapid succession. The destruction of Draenor (now known as Outland) stands as the most effective cautionary tale for these new students.

Because this magical wall deserves a bump, and to smash a confirmation of official lore about magic, teleportations & portals.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by erwtenpeller on Tue May 06, 2014 8:23 am

Delightful!

How is this thread not a sticky by the way. I think it deserves a little sticky love.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by siegmund on Tue May 06, 2014 11:56 am

Becouse it's mentioned in the guides sticky also sex magic.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Zaraj on Tue May 06, 2014 12:53 pm

Pretty unrelated to the guide, so I guess you could see it as a bump, but...

Tuomas/Decurius wrote:
- Lich King Ending
Considering how much it was built during the whole questing experience and not only, I simply can't really see a different way to end that story. Consider I'm not a WCIII lover, though. The ending was fitting the storyline and the villain. If feels epic, it feels 'right'. Bolvar becoming the new Lich King fits the character, and let's be honest, only with supernatural help(considering wow's context) a villain like Arthas could have been taken care of. We could argue that putting Bolvar in a shelf for the time being was a huge blow to Alliance, and thus made the whole Blizzard Horde bias more evident as the next expack and stories came on, but that's nothing to do with the story itself.
[...] Wow lore is great, and it's huge potential for great stories. Give them priority, instead of giving it to issues that have nothing to do with the story itself  and its immersivity.

Did someone actually say this? Do my eyes deceive me?

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by siegmund on Tue May 06, 2014 1:19 pm

Wise old panda say: "Wow lore is good until it is bad. And then it is more dangerous than all the sarcasm in the world."

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Thelos on Tue May 06, 2014 2:09 pm

Cynicism is for hipsters and old people.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Drustai on Tue May 06, 2014 3:17 pm

WoW lore is expansive and can be fun, but yeah, I wouldn't really call it great. Too many contradictions, retcons, bigotry, and poor characterization to call it good.

erwtenpeller wrote:How is this thread not a sticky by the way. I think it deserves a little sticky love.

No, this shouldn't be a sticky. Linked in the guide thread, sure, but not a sticky. People shouldn't think it's a definitive source, considering how heavily theory-crafted it is. It's just one little resource from one player's personal viewpoint.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Ixirar/Kavalis on Tue May 06, 2014 3:49 pm

Drustai wrote:

No, this shouldn't be a sticky. Linked in the guide thread, sure, but not a sticky. People shouldn't think it's a definitive source, considering how heavily theory-crafted it is. It's just one little resource from one player's personal viewpoint.

But it was written by you, so by the laws of forum fame, it's canon on Defias Brotherhood.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Sanara on Tue May 06, 2014 4:00 pm

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:
Drustai wrote:

No, this shouldn't be a sticky. Linked in the guide thread, sure, but not a sticky. People shouldn't think it's a definitive source, considering how heavily theory-crafted it is. It's just one little resource from one player's personal viewpoint.

But it was written by you, so by the laws of forum fame, it's canon on Defias Brotherhood.

/signed

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Littlepip on Wed May 07, 2014 9:06 am

Sanara wrote:
Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:
Drustai wrote:

No, this shouldn't be a sticky. Linked in the guide thread, sure, but not a sticky. People shouldn't think it's a definitive source, considering how heavily theory-crafted it is. It's just one little resource from one player's personal viewpoint.

But it was written by you, so by the laws of forum fame, it's canon on Defias Brotherhood.

/signed

Agreed, this is the most detailed thing I could find about magic, this should be implemented into the game because DAYOM its awesome.. And a heavy reader.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Tnecniw on Sun May 11, 2014 7:23 am

Drustai wrote:
Shriukan wrote:Great read. Definitely gonna use some of that stuff. I have a question though.

How do you classify/explain a druid's ability to shapeshift (and to a lesser extent, Ghost Wolf)? Physical Transmutation of one's body or something else?

Shapeshifting abilities fall under the school of transmutation. Both follow the principles of transmutation... that is, altering the cosmic design to match the desired shape and thus transmuting into it. Exactly how they do it is not directly explained, though one can assume that druids attune themselves to particular animal spirits (hence why they called themselves druids of the claw, druids of the fang, etc, because they dedicated themselves to attuning to that animal spirit), whereas shamans call upon the spirits of wolves (I assume) and request of them to take their shape.

In both druids and shamans, it is transmutation, but it is handled 'indirectly' through their faith/communing with spirits, whereas mages transmute things through direct methods (incantations, gestures, reagents, etc. Forcefully altering the pattern themselves).
If that is true... wouldn't it be possible for someone to change into other things... such as Spiders or other insects? Cause I want my char to be able to do that without breaking the lore... (I know it is impossible visually but still...)

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

Post by Thelos on Sun May 11, 2014 8:04 am

I wouldn't advice playing a character that can turn into a spider, since there's no abilities in the game that allow that. If you play a druid there's plenty of things you can shapeshift into however, such as cats and bears.

If you are really keen on the idea of playing a spider, I suppose the best way to go about it is to play a hunter and use order the spider to go place and try to hide your character's model as well as you can. Pop an invisibility potion (or just use camo) and sneak around the corner. It'd be clumsy, but it just might work.

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Re: The Magnificent Manual of Mastering Mysticism: A Guide to Magic

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