Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by erwtenpeller on Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:16 am

Lexgrad wrote:Love them or hate them, they are the best guild on the server.
Oh yeah, deffo.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by corleth on Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:12 am

Melnerag wrote:I am especially worried about sir Richard Esterton and his squire Lexgrad Barrow’s involvement
...what. Shocked

Tsurana/Lorainne wrote:Anethionism is a vile stain on the purity of the Light.
There's her opinion.
that's the opinion of a heretic!

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Rmuffn on Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:37 am

Tsurana/Lorainne wrote:Anethionism is a vile stain on the purity of the Light.
There's her opinion.

I liked Anethion, his teachings were reasonable. But the Abbots after him, twisted his teachings, and added their delluded and corrupt crap into it. So the today's Chapter is more evil than they should be, and clearly misguided.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Thelos on Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:53 am

All right this has been bothering me for a while...

Do we all have the distinctions between heretics heathens, infidels and blasphemers right? I fear I do not, and I am getting quite confused because of it.

Heresy is the adoption of a dogma or set of belief that varies from the established dominant dogma in a culture, which to my knowledge for Stormwind would be the Church of the Holy Light. Heresy often stresses the change or the "fall" from a former faithful (to the dominant dogma) to a variant set of beliefs. Key words are dissent and "choosing the different option.

Because of its character of rejection of the dominant dogma, this is often seen as worse than for example Heathenism. From the perspective of the Church, the Holy Chapter of Anethion would be Heretics. If a Draenei anchoress, after eons of having worshipped the Light and the Naaru suddenly adopts Elunism, she would be considered a Heretic.

Heathens are the "Unconverted" in the most abstract sense: Those who have yet to accept the Light, or if we're being particularily nasty, Barbarians and Savages. Gnolls and murlocs, orcs, night elves, etc. From what I have found many Christian thinkers are much more mild and forgiving to Heathens than to Heretic, as rather than a rejection these uncouth barbarians are to be educated. They are potential believers and it is often seen as a Sacred Duty to convert them to the Faith. Brothers and sisters of the Light, though they may differ in dogma, do not see eachothers as Heathens.

An Infidel is simply one who does not accept your particular dogma and beliefs. For the longest time "Infidel" and "Muslim" were pretty much synoyms in the Western world. If we stress the differences in the interptation of the Holy Light rather than the simaliraties, then Thelos would be an infidel to the Anethions and the other way around. From what I understand the way an Infidel differs from a Heathen is that the Infidel is in some way enlightened and touched by Faith. From the Missionary's perspective, the original inhabitans of the colonies would be Heathens, and those more civilized that adapted a deviant faith would be infidels. The difference between an infidel and a heretic would be that a heretic has shifted and rejected one faith to accept another, while for an infidel that does not have to be the case: a Muslim raised in the Arabic world never actually actively rejected Christianity in the way the Protestants or Witches did.

So, if we are keen on stressing the differences in dogma between the Lighties, the Draenei would perhaps be a good example if Infidels from the Chapter's point of view. Historically Infidels are treated with somewhat more honor than Heretic, as they are proper enemies rather than treacherous scum.

Blasphemy to me has always been the most complicated theological term. Sometimes it seems it is a development of the Greek Hubris[/b], that is seeing oneself as an equal or greater than the Divine, and sometimes it is simply saying or thinking things that go against Dogma and insult the Divine. This to me always feels like the broadest term that can be applied loosely to many things

---

Long story short: "Anethionism is a vile stain of the purity of the Light", when uttered by a Faithful of the Church (Lorainne) of the Holy Light would be the opinion of an infidel, rather than a heretic. Lets not forget that the Anethonians are the ones with the deviant dogma, the protestants to the Chuch of the Holy Light's Roman Catholics. For this reason I'm not really comfortable with Anethonians calling faithful of the Church of the Holy Light heretics, since it implies that the Anethions are the dominant dogma. However, it is the [i]perfect
term for you guys to apply to deserters, though.

There terms tend to ovelap sometimes and it does get mighty confusing, so I figured it might be good to stop and reflect on their different meanings for a while lest they loose their meaning and we start using the terms like they are interchangable. Especially the difference between an Infidel and a Heretic is important to keep in mind.

From the perspective of the average Anethion:

Thelos, as a practicioner of the Draenei's ancient interpetation and follower of the Naaru, would be an infidel.
Delidah, as a Kaldorei naïve and mostly alien to matters faith, would be a [/b]heathen[/b]
Endmyn, as an oathbreaker and one who rejected Anethonian's dogma would be a filthy heretic.

"Anethionism is a vile stain of purity on the Light?"
Blasphemy!

On the respect scale, I would say infidels deserve more respect than heretics, while heathens would be "off the respect scale".

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Lorainne/Bridlington on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:03 am

Your wall of text is perfect, Thelos, but it was me dictating how Delidah should think about Anethionism, and this wrapped up in a small joke.
Lorainne's opinion is very different from mine, remember!

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by erwtenpeller on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:14 am

*bows to Thelos the almighty*

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by corleth on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:16 am

Thelos wrote:Thelos' wall of text.
From an objective point, yes; the Anethioneans along with the Scarlets, Argent Dawn and the Brotherhood of Light would be heretics. However, from an Anethioenan point of view and Witch-bane definitions, a heretic is: "an individual who professes and/or preaches a false religion such as Demon-worship or teachings of the Soulblighter, or an individual who seeks to subvert the doctrine of the faith or question the truthfulnes of the revelation."

The italicised text would relate to Lorainne's post, even if it was said on a whim without me really paying much mind to the definitions. Heretic just rolls off the tongue. Cool

Also, as far as we know, Endmyn would be an apostate (an individual who has renounced his Faith in the Holy Light in favor of faithlessness or some other ‘religion’) until he actually makes a conscious attempt to subvert the Anethionean faith.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:26 am

Corleth wrote:
Melnerag wrote:I am especially worried about sir Richard Esterton and his squire Lexgrad Barrow’s involvement
...what. Shocked

I have no comment at this time but Lexgrad is a common Lordaeronic name.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by corleth on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:28 am

Lexgrad wrote:
Corleth wrote:
Melnerag wrote:I am especially worried about sir Richard Esterton and his squire Lexgrad Barrow’s involvement
...what. Shocked

I have no comment at this time but Lexgrad is a common Lordaeronic name.
...phew. Wink

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:29 am

Corleth wrote:
Lexgrad wrote:
Corleth wrote:
Melnerag wrote:I am especially worried about sir Richard Esterton and his squire Lexgrad Barrow’s involvement
...what. Shocked

I have no comment at this time but Lexgrad is a common Lordaeronic name.
...phew. Wink

It wasnt a denial either Brother Corleth.

Also would Lexgrad Bleakwind be a heretic?

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Lorainne/Bridlington on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:32 am

No, he should be considered* a heathen.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by corleth on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:34 am

he probably is, but we don't have any evidence for it yet.
Spoiler:

he's been accused of:
Blasphemy - speaking ill of the Holy Light
Sacrielege (x2) - defiling Northshire Abbey and striking the clergy. (Verdict Passed)
Withcraft - using dark magic against the Chapter (Verdict Passed)
Iniquity - armed assault on the citizens (Verdict Passed)
Corrupting - attempt to corrupt paladin Inazuka

Tsurana/Lorainne wrote:No, he should be considered* a heathen.
no he wouldn't. if he committed heretical deeds, he'd be a heretic.

a heathen is: an individual who professes a religion different than the Holy Light, but is in no position to convert, such as the Kaldorei. A human who converts to such heathen religions is however guilty.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Thelos on Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:47 am

The reason I brought up the distinction between heretics, heathens and infidels is because I am curious about how the Chapter views competing Churches. (I'll use this term in the broadest sense of the word; as in every institution that has a dogma or a set of beliefs based on the Light it actively spreads and practies. This includes the Draenei temples and the Church of the Holy Light)

Since I am most familiar with the Draenei, lets use them and my character as an example. The Draenei would regard the two Human churches as roughly equals. They both acknowledge and worship the Light and have a dogma that is lightgiven and therefore in some way just. Though Thelos would not actively accept the Three Virtues or the Sacred Duty and practise them, he does acknowledge them as at least Light inspired.

Now lets flip the perspective. How does the Chapter feel about a Draenei actively spreading the words of the Naaru? Do they acknowledge the Draenei temples and the Church of the Holy Light as having lightgiven doctrines, or do they reject them completely as lightless and unjust? We all worship the same "God", that much seems evident to my character; but is it evident to the Chapter? Would a Draenei spreading the word of the Naaru be equally guilty of Heresy as a Human spreading the word of some demonic ovelord or the Old Gods? I feel that depends to the degree to which the Chapter accepts the other two chuches (mentioned here) as lightgiven.

Though I definately feel I should pursue these questions in character, I could not help but out it given the discussion here and how it got me pumped to drop the questions!

TL;DR version

Thelos is:
  • A heretic
  • A heathen
  • An infidel


Choose one.

Tsurana/Lorainne wrote:No, he should be considered* a heathen.

Also, anyone who has ever been touched by the Light in a signifcant way is by definition unable to be a Heathen. Lexgard, having once been Faithful, has fallen from grace rather than never having accepted it. You should think of Night Elves, Gnolls, Orcs, Murlocs etc.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by corleth on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:01 am

The Chapter view the other human and Draenei institutions much in the same way that traditional Islam views the other Abrahamic religions: as Light-inspired 'rays of truth', while the Anethionean doctrine is the full-picture, so to speak.

Our catechism on this would be: "Those who do their Sacred Duty are also beloved by the Light, their ways of worship are however inferior to the true Anethionean Faith. Those races who do not follow the Holy Light may one day receive a prophet of their own.", implying that: "If you do Sacred Duty (do good, combat evil and avoid selfishness) you are recognized as a believer, and deserve some respect."

The Anethionean faith dictates that all people that believe in the Light are at least aspiring to know the Truth and do Good. Step Seven: Community sums this up.

Spoiler:
Step Seven:

Every faithful man, Anethionean or not, is imbued with Light's glory, and to wrong him or her is to blaspheme upon the Light. You shall therefore not inflict the following upon him:

Kill, Harm, Subjugate, Exploit, Steal, Trick, Insult, Deny Hospitality, Spread Ill Rumors, Deceive, Conceal the Truth, Deny Aid, Wish Harm, Think Poorly Of or Treat with Prejudice.

And should treat with every faithful with compassion, benevolence and respect, and never do upon him that which you would not want to be inflicted upon you.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Lorainne/Bridlington on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:01 am

I did not know that Lexgrad used to be faithful.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:06 am

He doesnt follow any faith now so I guess that makes him an apostate. However many of his deeds would be revolting to lightdogs. Even if you overlook what he did as a Scourge Death Knight he has murdered taken many hundreds of souls... It is doubtful that everyone of them was from an enemy of the alliance either. It is hard to see this practice not being concidered more than a simple crime by the church.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Thelos on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:10 am

Corleth wrote:The Chapter view the other human and Draenei institutions much in the same way that traditional Islam views the other Abrahamic religions: as Light-inspired 'rays of truth', while the Anethionean doctrine is the full-picture, so to speak.

Thank you, Corleth, that was most insightful and exactly what I wanted to learn, especially because I sometimes jokingly refer to Draenei as "Spacejews", since they would be the first Abrahamic religion, if we were to stress the analogy.

I should really appreciate the full Anethonian texts so I can confront Anethions with texts like that. For example recently I was banned from the Cathedral by a particularily zealous firebrand. Thelos treated him with the sort of patronizing respect one would show an overly passioniate youngster who in his zeal commits some wrongs with the best intentions. Reciting a passage like that would have suited my roleplay perfectly, considering Thelos is supposed to be well read on the Anethion doctrine.

Could I perhaps ask for a GHI item, or a PDF of sorts?


Last edited by Thelos on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:14 am; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:11 am

Tsurana/Lorainne wrote:I did not know that Lexgrad used to be faithful.

Most Death Knights where Lor. Lex was a pre Acherus DK and they were mostly Paladins who fell at Lordaeron. Even the Acherus DKs (Who at this point could have been anyone dragged from the field, they were not picky) would more tham likely be a believer in something, be it Light e'lune or Loa ect ect. (I say more than likely as I assume Athests are a very small popultion in Azeroth)

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Kristeas Sunbinder on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:18 am

Lexgrad wrote:
Tsurana/Lorainne wrote:I did not know that Lexgrad used to be faithful.

Most Death Knights where Lor. Lex was a pre Acherus DK and they were mostly Paladins who fell at Lordaeron. Even the Acherus DKs (Who at this point could have been anyone dragged from the field, they were not picky) would more tham likely be a believer in something, be it Light e'lune or Loa ect ect. (I say more than likely as I assume Athests are a very small popultion in Azeroth)

I think many would fall under "non-practicing", Blood Elves might have a good amount of atheists, since belief has nothing to do with the fact that a giant space lantern restarted your magic well. Enough proof it actualy happened.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Thelos on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:21 am

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:
Lexgrad wrote:
Tsurana/Lorainne wrote:I did not know that Lexgrad used to be faithful.

Most Death Knights where Lor. Lex was a pre Acherus DK and they were mostly Paladins who fell at Lordaeron. Even the Acherus DKs (Who at this point could have been anyone dragged from the field, they were not picky) would more tham likely be a believer in something, be it Light e'lune or Loa ect ect. (I say more than likely as I assume Athests are a very small popultion in Azeroth)

I think many would fall under "non-practicing", Blood Elves might have a good amount of atheists, since belief has nothing to do with the fact that a giant space lantern restarted your magic well. Enough proof it actualy happened.

Woudn't they be misotheists, rather than atheists? In the sense that they acknowledge the Light excists (denying that seems almost absurd and irrational for a people who have wielded it for many generations) but that it has abandoned them and therefore is to be hated and scorned rather than revered?

Edit: Most Archeus Death Knights would also fit into this category, I reckon. "The Light has abandoned me and is therefore to be hated" is not something an atheist would think, since an atheist would reject the excistance of the Light all together, perhaps reducing that miracles it brings forth to the Arcane, which would as Kristeas hinted at be a viable option for Blood Elves.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by erwtenpeller on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:29 am

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:a giant space lantern
Awesome.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:35 am

Lexgrad is a Misotheist.

But he wishes to be seen as an athest. His view of the light are that it is magic as the arcane is, but unlike the arcane the Priests have developed a priesthood of lies to decieve where as the Mages are honest that it is just magic. He denys the devinity of the Light.

This is one view of one Death Knight, Lex's views shouldnt be seen as the stock opinion, I am sure DKs would get into the forgotten shadow maybe and many would still have faith in there religions from life.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Lexgrad on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:40 am

Also thanks to Blizz there are one race of DKs missing from the picture largely... High elves. The Earlier population of DKs would be largely human or Helf Paladins who would all be lighty dogs.

Any Belf DKs are most likely to be Acherus made and could be pulled from any part of Belf society, all that is needed is that they died and were recovered by the Scourge. There would be some Pre Acherus DKs ofc but alot of them would be pre sunwell repare job.

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Kristeas Sunbinder on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:43 am

Thelos wrote:Woudn't they be misotheists, rather than atheists? In the sense that they acknowledge the Light excists (denying that seems almost absurd and irrational for a people who have wielded it for many generations) but that it has abandoned them and therefore is to be hated and scorned rather than revered?

Misotheism would fit the feeling after the scourge invasion, where they felt that the light abandoned them. Later on, as tempers cooled, they might have thought "what if the light isn't that divine?" and might consider it just a type of magic like elemental or arcane. The Naaru have high skill in the use of light magic, but using that as a proof of the light's divine nature, would be like sending a couple of robots to the stone age and have the cavemen believe that electricity is god (note that humans did that, proof: all them thundergods).

Edit:
High Elf/Blood Elf dk's:
Since you can't seen their original eye color, it's strictly an ideological label. Very possible that many High Elfs that got Acherus DK's suddenly felt more inclined to go all Blood Elf.


Last edited by Kristeas Sunbinder on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:45 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

Post by Thelos on Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:44 am

So, in summary:

Due to recent developments, Thelos has begun doubting whether the Anethonian doctrine is actually Lightgiven. As such he is planning to research the Man behind the doctrine, to figure out the source of his wisdom and hopefully find some Lightinspired (or Naaru inspired of course) Revelation in there. Troughout this journey and adventure trough dusty libraries and forgotten archives we will of course keep in touch closely with the author of this information to figure out when and where to recieve certain tidbits of information.

I will most likely begin my search soon and will welcome anyone interested along for the ride.


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Re: Anethion - Light's prophet or a power-hungry demagogue?

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